Navison - moving into .NET

Shenpen

I expect some big drop in licence fees as I think it is clear even to them that such high prices can't be maintained for long. If I compare Navision functionality to SAP and compare the price, an UBP price needs to drop to $1200/user so...

themave

even if license fees droped on user license, overall cost will still be going up, as soon it will be required (on edit - it is my opionion, not fact) to have licensed copies of every Microsoft product just to run Dynamics,

you will need.

portal server
commerce server
biztalk server
windows 2003 server
SQl server
MS office 12 pro version
application server
Visual Studio.net

and I haven't even got to all the new granules of Dynamics-Nav that will need to be licensed just to have basic functionality. Have I missed anything? When we started on Navision, you had some options, it could be run on ibm Aix hardware, and a few others, now is it Microsoft only.

DenSter

I am sorry but there is no way you know that this is the case...

themave wrote:

you will need.

portal server
commerce server
biztalk server
windows 2003 server
SQl server
MS office 12 pro version
application server
Visual Studio.net

It is probably optimized for Windows Server 2003, but what do you expect, since it IS the current version of Microsoft's server OS.

I don't know how you get this information, but it is not correct.

themave

DenSter wrote:

I am sorry but there is no way you know that this is the case...
It is probably optimized for Windows Server 2003, but what do you expect, since it IS the current version of Microsoft's server OS.

You will need none of the applications mentioned above to run Navision.

But even now, you need most of these to use any of the new features of Navision, or else you have to pay a programer to custom program the features. But most are already needed for anything new. and you still have to pay a programmer just to make them work correctly.

Everything except visual studio.net but that is what this whole post started as moving to .net and most agree that is the direction it is going.

DenSter

Let me go down your list:
portal server - I don't know what this is, so I may not understand this one. Are you referring to Commerce Portal? That is no longer a product, so you wold not need this to run Navision. If you can make it run in the old configuration, then yes you will need the external components, but you do not need this portal to run Navision.

If you are referring to employee portal, then the sharepoint services that you need are available for free, so what's the problem there? I just don't share the perceived problem there. You need a server OS, so why not use Windows Server 2003?

commerce server - You would only need commerce server to run commerce portal, and that is no longer a Navision product. There is no other Navision component that I know of that needs commerce server, so you do not need this to run Navision.

biztalk server - Only if you want to use Commerce Gateway do you need Biztalk, and you don't need a developer to set it up. Only companies that do B2B communication would be interested in this, and chances are that they already have it, or that their business requirements warrant the use of this app anyway. Regardless, you do not need Biztalk to run Navision.

windows 2003 server - this is the current server OS, and I fail to see how you would get aorund an operating system, no matter what kind of hardware you run. I dont see how this is a bad thing.

SQl server - Navision has its own DBMS as you know, so you do not need SQL Server to run Navision. For sure the emphasis is on SQL Server, and for sure I would not be surprised if the big Dynamics will only be available on SQL Server out of the box, but for now there is still the native Navision database system. You do not NEED SQL Server to run Navision.

I also don't see how this would be a bad thing, since SQL Server is Microsoft's database management system, a product that they carry, and that they charge a fee to use it. If you want to use Oracle's database, you have to pay for it as well, I really don't see why it is such a bad thing to have to pay for your database system.

MS office 12 pro version - This is also just not true. Office 12 is guarded like a new born at Microsoft. It's almost a capital offense to even show screenshots. When it comes out maybe, but I seriously doubt that Navision will not work with anything but office 12. You would certainly not need office 12 to be able to run Navision, so again that is not correct information. You may have a point if it turns out that when you want to send an email from navisoin that you have to have a certain Office version, so I'll give you half of this one . But maybe this part will be more flexible as well, you never know .

application server - Application server is a separate product that comes with the product cd. You do not need NAS to run Navision, except for certain parts. When you do want to use those parts, the software is on the product cd, so I don't see why that owuld be a problem. Regardles, you don't need NAS to run Navision, it is the other way around.

Visual Studio.net - it is simply not true that you will NEED visual studio to run Navision. It is a rumor, nothing else. Maybe by the time we get the big Dynamics it will be in Visual Studio in one way or another, that would make sense if you look at all the other MS products that have an editor or a snap-in in VS. But these are all guesses, speculation, non-facts, and to present them as anything else is just not right.

themave

I am talking about what I think the future holds, and I thinks it holds only microsoft products, you will no longer be able to use a best of breed software solution, it will be a Microsoft solution, or nothing.

If you are running openoffice, or star office, forget intergrating it with Navision. If you are running orcle, or mysql, forget running it with Navision. If you have a mini or mainframe, or you have Sun hardware forget running it with Navision.

I almost forgot, to run Navision 4, you have to upgrade your work stations also, because the client won't install on NT, or linux, or a Mac or unix, or anything but win2000 or higher. Oh yea, if you want to run Microsoft win xp, you have to really run the pro version, because the home version cripples important network features.

and yes you do not need the above listed servers to run navision, you just need them to do anything new with navision.

and if no one including me knows what is coming how are you so sure about things ?

DenSter

The apps that you are listing now are not the ones you started out with, do you still feel you need all the apps from your first list to run navision? You said you need those components "for anything new in Navision". I'd like you to tell me for what you need all the listed components. Please define "anything new", and how those products come into play.

Microsoft will probably never support any open source project, so forget about open office and linux and anything else open source. It is only gonna happen if MS faces bankruptcy unless it does. We can argue all day long whether this is smart or not, but that's the way it is. If you want to integrate those products with Navision, you can use components that you can call from within Navision, there are plenty of examples available. Just don't expect Microsoft to support it. Maybe you should go into business yourself and develop that, if there is really that much demand for it, you might even strike it rich. If you do I would be the first in line to congratulate you too .

What else do you expect from MS? They are in business to sell MS products, so their main focus is to make their stuff work on MS platforms. Would YOU spend your R&D money on making Navision work on Oracle or on making the product better on your own platform? I don't think your answer would be any different than what MS is doing now.

Navision is a Microsoft solution, so it runs on Microsoft products. Like it or not, they don't HAVE to make it work on anything else, just like Oracle doesn't HAVE to make their development tools work on any specific platform. Oracle probably made their tools work on Windows, because they wanted to sell their products to Windows users. Maybe MS doesn't want to sell Navision to Oracle users, or otherwise they would have made it compatible.

Why would you want to run NT if you intend to run the latest software? It clearly lists Windows XP Professional in the software requirements, so you know what to do before you buy the product. You won't be able to run open office on last year's version of linux any more than you can run new software packjages on old operating systems, so that is just not a valid reason in my opinion.

XP Home is not intended to be used in an enterprise network environment, so I would question the person that tries to do that in the first place. That's like saying you should be able to go 4-wheeling with a Ford Focus, you wouldn't do that either.

I'm not 100% sure about anything either, and I am also not making any factual statements. I singed a non disclosure agreement, so I can't talk about the details of the things that I saw. I do know that what you said about NEEDING all those products to run Navision is not true, and for you to tell everybody that is the way it is going to be is spreading rumors that are not based on any facts. You should be more careful to make sure you are writing an opinion and not a list of facts.

If you got the information from somewhere public, please include a link so we can all read it. My information is not all that new anymore (early october), and I'm not getting any instructions as to what I can start talking about.

themave

I have no inside information, only 6 years experience as an end user of Navision, before it was a Microsoft product, I had a choice of hardware and client platforms, since it has been with Microsoft, the choices have decreased and the cost have increased.

annual maintenance went from 10% to 16%,
included support hours were valued at half of the maintenance cost,
now they are zero.

Each major upgrade took functions that were part of base product and made them new granules requiring additional license fees to maintain the same functionality, perfect example is responsibility centers. The basic functions were integrated with the user set up in Navision 2.0, but now it cost $3000 to purchase responsibility centers to get the same basic functionality.

I have an entire installed base of NT machines that have done nothing but run the Navision client and still function great, but now all have to be upgraded to run the 4.0 client.

And each new version of Navision has had very little improvement over the prior version, but most of the added functions, do require a tighter integration with Microsoft, and yes I understand what they are doing, but I believe it will do more harm to Microsoft, as it will price out what used to be the target market for Navision. The small to midsize business that had outgrown small market financials, but didn't have the resources to go with a full blown Oracle or SAP installation. Cost under Microsoft has nearly doubled from our original installation, in 1999, a single user license cost us $720 a piece, it is over double that now. I have nothing against Microsoft, I use and like many of their products. the Small business server has been a well priced product that has worked good for us. The terminal server product, from the original NT terminal server addition to the current integrated win2000/3 terminal server functions, works nice. But I do like to go out and pick the best product for the current task, and MSOffice stopped being that product back at Office 2000. At roughly $400 a seat it doesn't compete with openoffice.org. At $100 it might if it integrated with Navision, but each new version of MSoffice also requires a hardware upgrade in addition to the software upgrade. so that also has to be included in it’s cost.

So, my big gripe with Microsoft is that each new version of any of their products requires new hardware, new annual maintenance agreements, and new cost, for very little added functionality. And the annual maintenance has to be the worst value in the industry.

ara3n

I agree with anual maintance, it's a joke. You pay all this money to get the improvements, but if you have modifications, you have to pay the NSC to merge them. If the fix doesn't fix the data, well then good luck.

themave

Maybe you should go into business yourself and develop that, if there is really that much demand for it, you might even strike it rich. If you do I would be the first in line to congratulate you too .

Yeah that's a good one, and a month after I released it there would be a Microsoft Hotfix that would somehow break it. But anyways I am already working for a business that produces other products I just use Microsoft product to help run that business, They just are moving down a path that makes it less likely that I will be using Microsoft products to run it in the future, several years ago I was looking forward to Microsoft buying Navision, was hoping for a lot, just never came to realize it. Most of the major releases have been nothing more then bug fixes for problems that existed all the ways back in Navision 2.0 with advance distrubution, very little new functionality. Most of the new features in 4.0 over 2.0 with advanced distrubution are really just integrating what was already available from third parties into Navision. Only real new feature I can think of is unapply feature. They fixed other things that should have worked 5 years ago, like Location item transfers. you never could transfer a serialized item except through a item transfer journal, what kind of tranfer granule sold as the ability to seamlessly transfer items between your locations, would not transfer a serialized item. didn't work in 2.0, 2.6, 3.1, 3.7 and now finaly in 4.0 the transfer program will actually transfer all of our inventory items between locations. Wow what an upgrade it fixes a 5 year problem, and pithces it has a new feature.

ara3n

found this link on navision 5

http://www.comet-it.co.uk/News/Microsoft+Navision+Product+Road+Map.htm

Shenpen

I think licences prices will decide whether Navision will retain this great sales momentum it has now. The basic problem is that when people change a $10 000 software for a $60 000 one (and now just licence prices, not TCO), they expect it to be six times better. And what they actually got is a faster software, much better analysis tools, amazing drill-down in flowfields, very handy was to dig out data, but actually quite hard to use for non-accountans and has almost zero productivity-enchancing functionality, so they generally got disappointed. (This is one of the reasons I always have to hack everything: usually the only thing of real value for the customers are the functions that we are programing...)

Would it cost $20 000 or $30 000 fo the same company, everbody would understand that it won't do wonders.

If the current price holds on, disappointments will sooner or later become public and then Navision might lose the sales momentum it has now.

kine

Shenpen wrote:

The basic problem is that when people change a $10 000 software for a $60 000 one (and now just licence prices, not TCO), they expect it to be six times better. And what they actually got is a faster software, much better analysis tools, amazing drill-down in flowfields, very handy was to dig out data, but actually quite hard to use for non-accountans and has almost zero productivity-enchancing functionality, so they generally got disappointed. (This is one of the reasons I always have to hack everything: usually the only thing of real value for the customers are the functions that we are programing...)

Yes, if you buy only "Navision in Box" - You will get only basic functionality, covering wide range of processes, but hardly usable - BUT - you get tool for customizing whole application for your need - and this is point, why there is so high price - many other systems are cheaper and more usable "as is". But you have no chance to change anything, add new functionality, create some modifications, change processes etc... and this is something, what each customer need to know - Navision "as is" is only rough system but with big potential for customizations...

ara3n

Kine My Question is then which route will MS take when they combine the 4 ERP systems. It looks like Navision has taken the opposite route of Great Plains. Great Plains is usable as is and if you need modification, you need to look at 3rd party addon. Axapta is too complicated / too big in order to make single modifications. Small-mid size customers won't be able to handle it. Knowing Microsoft, Dynamics will have as many features, to sell the product, which means we will get Great plains with tons of features with customizations capability of Navision, and some good techical features of Axapta, e.g. multi layer code. So which way will Dynamics go, and which way is Navision 5 is going?

kine

Which way? I do not know... I think MSFT do not know too right now...

But Nav 5 is going in direction, where will be no difference between Nav, GP, Ax, Sol etc... :-)

Right now, Nav 5 is for me something like Facelift for Navision and approaching and connecting to another MS products.

DenSter

It's just not as simple as saying "GP with NAV's ability to customize" or "SL's user friendliness with the technical sophistication of AX". It is going to be a whole new product, hopefully incorporating the strong aspects of all separate MBS products. Think concepts at this point, not functionality. Think role based user experience, .NET technology, integration capabilities, fully scalable solutions, things like that.

henshaw

Which language C# or VB.net will be more useful to learn in order to be able to developp in the next versions of Navision ?


Thanks for your answer.

ara3n

I would guess C#. Or it could be C/Side.NET

kine

C/Side is enough for now. C# is adventage for everything... :-)

davmac1

When I asked a Navision employee a few months ago, he replied C# FWIW

henshaw

OK it's clear, and thanks for your answers.

Have a nice week !

DenSter

In the next version (Dynamics NAV 5) we will be programming in C/AL, not C#. Whatever comes after that is anybody's guess. Given the fact that Microsft uses C# internally, it would be an easy conclusion to say that we will be using it as well at some point, but it's a guess at best, and it will not be in the next version of Navision.

davmac1

Do you think the new forms will use C/AL?
Expect Convergence will provide a lot of NAV 5 info and a little NAV 6 and Wave 2.

ara3n

Saw this on one of blogs about Navision 5. I found it here
http://www.demiliani.com/blog/

Two days out of office for meetings and few times for blogging...

Yesterday we had a Microsoft Partner meeting in Milan and we've seen the first images of Navision 5.0 (code name "Corsica").

I can say that the product has a total new look, more styled like Vista. The menu is similar to the actual menu introduced with the 4.0 release (the menusuite object is quite the same) but now Navision has a start page where you can place lots of informations, such as graphs, check the state of your orders, customers, balances etc.

There's a new messaging system integrated into the system and you can have instant messaging features between users. Navision 5.0 will have a native web client (thin client) but seems that it will only be supported on Vista (this is what Microsoft's staff has said us but I can't understand the reasons and if it's true). It will have also native web services interfaces.

This is all what I can say... Navision 5.0 will be surely a revolution!

Marije_Brummel

Can we like close this topic and put a link to

http://www.mibuso.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... highlight=

Or whatever other topic that contains some more details about NAV 5.0 instead of geassing.