Navison - moving into .NET

Kowa

DenSter wrote:

it IS a publicly available website, so anybody that speaks Dutch can read it.

And those who can't can use
http://babelfish.altavista.com
to translate the text.

janpieter

davmac1 wrote:

I could only find a Dutch document which I am translating with translation program I found via Google (Google itself does not offer Dutch).

One of the interesting translated pieces is:

"On the market Navision 4.0 bring in October 2004 show our continuing involvement for providing terrible solutions"

I assume terrible was not the meaning intended....

Oops i think this file is not for publication ...

If i were you i would search for a different translation program. The translated word 'geweldig' was translated to terrible but it means exactly the opposite

As Marks sais it is probably not a good idea to translate the document. However the document is inteded for navision partners .. i gues every partner will receive this document whenever MS feels it is ready for publication.

dlacaba

themave wrote:

Didn't you just describe the next version of Navision, won't it most likely be the great plain project green program, and a set of tools to migrate Navision users to it. Before then there will be a Navision 5. that will change the look and feel a little more toward the project green.

After reading the dutch document, it appears that I did.

DenSter

It IS what they used to call 'project green'. It is NOT just the next version of Great Plains. If you have access to partnersource, search for the powerpoint presentation on the future of Microsoft Dynamics and the two waves of innovations.

It is important to Microsoft that partners that use currect MBS products to be able to migrate to the future Dynamics product, so they will provide us with tools. But to simply brush it off as a tool to migrate the look and feel is oversimplifying it. It is about a LOT more than just look and feel.

The big Dynamics product is not just the next Navision or GP or Axapta or..... it is an entirely new application that hopefully has all the products best features and none of the products bad features.

themave

DenSter wrote:

It is important to Microsoft that partners that use current MBS products to be able to migrate to the future Dynamics product, so they will provide us with tools. But to simply brush it off as a tool to migrate the look and feel is oversimplifying it. It is about a LOT more than just look and feel.

Navision and Great plains future upgrades ARE pretty close to just a look and feel upgrade. With the added benefit to Microsoft of requiring even more Microsoft products to be able to take advantage of any new functionality, you will have to have SQL, the application server, the portal server, the office product line, and program in .net to be able to take advantage of the Dynamics product.

There clearly will not be a Native database offered soon, probably in Navision 5. If there is the native database, it will not support the new features that are introduced, it will just be backward compatible so Microsoft doesn’t chase away too many customers. There will be a few that stick with Navision and the Native database and just have a solution center program some improvements for them, and provide support. I don’t have access to partner source, so I can not say for sure.

You are correct Dynamics is a new product, and as such Microsoft will need to make upgrade tools available, or else SAP will provide an upgrade tool. As an end user the switch to Dynamics to me will have to be sold against other options that will be on the market at that time, including SAP, Oracle, and what ever else is out there. For a small shop like ours (30 users), we don’t want to have to manage a sql server, a portal server, and we run openoffice.org not MSOffice, so each upgrade Microsoft issues pushes up further away, not closer to Microsoft.

All I can say, from an end users prospective is that Microsoft has done a poor job explaining to us what they are offering in regards to a future with Navision, everything has been pure marketing promises about a connected organization, roles base software, What is that, we have role based software now, Our users do there work, have menus with there options on it. Now what is Microsoft doing to improve that? They are going to have us assign the user to a role and have his menus adjusted automatically. Big deal, how hard is it to do that now. Not very. Maybe I am simplifying things, but I think you get my point. And the whole integration with MSOffice, what is that about, how many counter sales people are running pivot tables – None is my guess. How many call center employees, synchronize Navision with Outlook – Few if any, they sit in front of a computer screen all day, answering questions.

Just my opinion anyways,

Marije_Brummel

Just be carefull to only believe half you hear and forget the other half. :?

to much roumours...

Just wait until next year or ask someone from Microsoft.

dlacaba

DenSter wrote:

It IS what they used to call 'project green'. It is NOT just the next version of Great Plains. If you have access to partnersource, search for the powerpoint presentation on the future of Microsoft Dynamics and the two waves of innovations.

It is important to Microsoft that partners that use currect MBS products to be able to migrate to the future Dynamics product, so they will provide us with tools. But to simply brush it off as a tool to migrate the look and feel is oversimplifying it. It is about a LOT more than just look and feel.

The big Dynamics product is not just the next Navision or GP or Axapta or..... it is an entirely new application that hopefully has all the products best features and none of the products bad features.

Well said, I agree, it is not just the next version of Great Plains. I used GP9.0 as an example to show what will be coming in the next version of Navision or Axapta.

themave

Mark Brummel wrote:

Just be carefull to only believe half you hear and forget the other half. :?

to much roumours...

Just wait until next year or ask someone from Microsoft.

Maybe that is part of the problem, Microsoft is not communicating with the developers, much less their actual customers. My total communication with Microsoft involves getting junk mail pitches for discounted training sessions, invites to SQL 5 lunch events.

I can request from my solution provider to get info on what is in the SP1 upgrade document. but I never even got notice about Navision 4. Only learned about it from browsing online forums, and hearing rumors. You would think we would have gotten marketing promo material on Navision 4

Marije_Brummel

Well, all I can say is we have exelent communications with Microsoft and if you ask about developments you will get all the information they are allowed to give at that point of time.

Don't you have some kind of channel manager of whatever it is called?

DenSter

@ themave:
Each navision version will be supported by Microsoft for at least 5 years into the future. From that moment on there will still be solution centers who offer support. The only thing you won't have is application updates for new OS, or hotfixes in the executables. Your investment in Navision will be safe for years and years to come.

I am not going to reply to the rumors you are spreading though, other than saying that the native C/SIDE database server will not just disappear at the next version.

I do agree though that Microsoft could be a lot more forthcoming about explaining new developments and what we can expect. The trouble is that often they don't seem to know themselves and they don't want to commit themselves by issueing a press release, so they wait until way late to let us know.

themave

DenSter wrote:

@ themave:
Each navision version will be supported by Microsoft for at least 5 years into the future. From that moment on there will still be solution centers who offer support. The only thing you won't have is application updates for new OS, or hotfixes in the executables. Your investment in Navision will be safe for years and years to come.

That is sort of true, but with a big caviate, if the latest fix is in a service pack or such, you won't be able to get it unless you upgrade to the service pack, which if you have customizations, involves a lot of work and is far from covered under the maintenance agreement.

Here is the response from my solution center to that very question.
"David,
If you run into problems that are addressed in Sp1, MBS will recommend
that you apply the latest service pack(s). They will not provide any
type of problem specific hot-fixes. Of course all future service packs
will be built upon Sp1.

Unfortunately, this has always been one of the downsides of customizing
Navision. You lose the ability to easily implement any object-related
hot fixes and/or service packs and unless you are willing to invest in
integrating them on an on-going basis, you tend to get stuck on a
version.

That being said, if there are problems that have been addressed in Sp1
the best we can do is try to see how the issue was addressed and
possibly create our own fix. Sometimes it's easy and sometimes it's not
depending upon the complexity of the issue."

but sure is not covered by Microsoft. So, either stay with a standard Navision, with no modifications, and then your upgrade and bug fixes will be covered.

themave

DenSterI wrote:

am not going to reply to the rumors you are spreading though, other than saying that the native C/SIDE database server will not just disappear at the next version.

I am not spreading rumors, I was stating my opinion, there is a difference, I also did say I thought the native database would be around, just all the new featurers will require SQL, Which again is just my opinion.

David

Marije_Brummel

Just got word back from Microsoft! It is out in the open now! Not confidential anymore!

=D>

We are also allowed to use the Corsica screendumps in demo's

ara3n

what is not confidential anymore? Just the screenshot?
I do agree, navision needs more than a facelift.
You can't run the business logic outside of it. Doesn't have error handling, Can't run validation for intercmopany records.
Serial and reservation are the worst. Costing is messed up.

Marije_Brummel

ara3n wrote:

what is not confidential anymore? Just the screenshot?
I do agree, navision needs more than a facelift.
You can't run the business logic outside of it. Doesn't have error handling, Can't run validation for intercmopany records.
Serial and reservation are the worst. Costing is messed up.

This is all promised to be better. If you try to translate the document you can read all of this is mentioned (exept the intercomp valdidation).

ara3n

Something else that also bothers me is that Greatplains allready released phase 1. and so did Solomons. but Navision is waiting 6 months?

Marije_Brummel

That is because navision will be better. =D>

They let GP and solomon get the bugs out first.

ara3n

GP and Solomons are still separate executables and have diff code base. They are totally diff applications. So no code is being shared. in phase 1. How can you make that assumption?

Sometimes I feel that navision themselves should role out their new version on a new client that will use every single feature for 6 months, to see the pain that we go through fixing all the bugs.

Marije_Brummel

Oops Sorry very much :oops:

I was just joking. Thougt that seemed obvious. :?

themave

So, the question for us non-Dutch speaking users, who don't have access to partner source. What future features of Navision, either SP2 or Corsica will be available to Native database users. And which features will require SQL server?

ara3n

My guess on sp2, will be replacing find('-') with findfirst, findlast, and findset, and lots of bug fixes.

ara3n

Mark Brummel wrote:

ara3n wrote:

what is not confidential anymore? Just the screenshot?
I do agree, navision needs more than a facelift.
You can't run the business logic outside of it. Doesn't have error handling, Can't run validation for intercmopany records.
Serial and reservation are the worst. Costing is messed up.

This is all promised to be better. If you try to translate the document you can read all of this is mentioned (exept the intercomp valdidation).

I hope they'll include a manual with the serial no. lot no logic. every time I get serial no error, I have to find out how the entries suppose to be for that senario.

kine

Ok, corsica. It will be very interesting. I am looking forward your feedback after you will see it.

Themave: I think that upgrades will be easier in the future. If they adopt the level system from Axapta (this is only example that there are another ways how to do that), it will be easy to do upgrade. You will only upgrade the core, and all the customization will be working with the corrected core. But there is some way the navision need to go through. It takes some time to change the "Dino" Navision through Microsoft Dynamics NAV to Microsoft Dynamics - super cool modern application... :-)

Of course, the connection to all MS products is assumed. I do not like it too, but...

Of course, the .net structure let you connect another products too, if they are able to communicate through XML etc. Of course, if the Navision will use MS SQL, you can still use for example free MS SQL 2005 Express, or there are runtime versions of MS SQL server for Navision for "low" price... I think that MS will not forget low-size companies. There will be some "core" application with the base functionality for the low-size company and may be that there will be some "Green" Express version for free... (MAYBE...:-) But this is all future, and we can only wait for now...

Marije_Brummel

Let's put a counter on the website: Days until the presentation of NAV 5

Wow; It is nice to see everyone so exited. It's like children in a candy store waiting for a new and better flavor...

kine

May be better will be "Counter of days we are waiting for the presentation...", we do not know the date of the presentation...

Shenpen

Remember that a while ago there were rumors about something called Microsoft Business Framework? It was something about that all MBS products will use the same object library even for business objects - so f.e. a Customer object in Navi/Ax/CRM/whatever would use or at least inherit the MBF Customer object, if I remember well.

Of course it would only be possible with a sophisticated architecture like the one of MS CRM.

Personally, I am quite afraid what will happen with Navision in the future. I think MS does not understand what ERP/CRM actually is about. They just treat it as just another MS product, and their main effort is to integrate it with other MS products.

For some clients it might turn out good. All those clients who use many MS products, people spend most of their working time in Outlook and Excel, collaborate on Sharepoint etc. will be happy, I think. In five years, they will have a kind of "integrated MS office solution" where one cannot tell where Excel ends and Navision starts or where Navision ends and Sharepoint starts, because it is so integrated. Those clients who work this way, will like it. If you consider your ERP is the "crown" or your many other MS products you use, you will like it.

However, what they do not understand is not every company is working this way. I have clients where people keep running around in a warehouse keying in data in DOS or Unix box sporting a dirt-covered 14'' monitor... they have a hard way learning even Navi 4.0 because it is a big, big leap in technology and the way of thinking.

I am afraid Navi will move into the MS CRM direction, now, if you compare MS CRM philosphy with a really good working solution such as the NaviMeat add-on, you can see what I am meaning. They don't understand that ERP/CRM is about business logic and adding business logic is much, much more important than Sharepoint or Excel or whatever integration. For example, if they would add a decent timesheet form to the Jobs application area, or integrate manufacturing forecasts with item budgets, or CRM with manufacturing forecasts, or any usable comission calculation, or support for non-work center based capacity management (process or batch manufacturing), or multi-level lot control, or FEFO in pickings, field level security, Resp. Center security for master data and analysis views, or even small things such as allowing to configure it by Locations whether negative inventory is allowed or not, it would be much a bigger boost to both sales and implementation success. (Sure, there are add-ons for that, but Navi is too expensive in itself, add-ons usually don't fit in the usual $100000 - $200000 budget. )

Shenpen

kine wrote:

If they adopt the level system from Axapta (this is only example that there are another ways how to do that), it will be easy to do upgrade.

The upgradability of Axapta is but a myth. Sure, there are layers, but if the customization is based on the logic of the core and then it changes, then your customization might compile, yes, but not work as it is expected. So in Axapta developers also need to review all customizations and decided and test that it works with the new version in the expected way. As Axapta technolgy is much more complicated (and much a bigger mess: f.e. you cannot translate everything because there are some messages hardcoded in the binary kernel...) than Navision technology, it can be much a higher work than the usual copy/paste of fields, triggers etc. we do in Navision.

Another thing is that while in Navision only 40% of customizations is about repairing bugs, in Axapta it can be 80% as it is so damn buggy. (I remember the day when we installed Axapta: it started to compile itself, did it for three days, ate all memory and then happily crashed sayin' "Sorry for the inconvenience..." A nice first impression, isn't it? ) In every upgrade, you gotta check your bug repairs, find out whether it is repaired in the standard, decide whether to remove your one or not etc...

kine

Thanks for the info about Axapta... as we can see, there is no technology, which is without problems. And may be, that we will have one product which will keep only the good things from the old systems... O:)

Yes, I know that I am optimist, but without optimism I will be not able to think about future... 8)

Shenpen

Yes, but actually most of tech problems I think come from the fact that big corporations (and not only MS, also true for Sun Java J2EE, IBM etc.) tend to oversize and overcomplicate their technology. You know I could write hours and hours about things I hate about Navision but one thing is very, very good: the old Navision A/S managed to keep the technology and architecture simple enough so it's easy to understand, modify and repair. It's the good ol' KISS principle, and and I am afraid it is disappearing now. I mean in the old times Axapta folks had this kind of "use the best tech available" way of thinking and they did marveous things such as built-in OLAP viewer and whatever, but Axapta generally just doesn't work, because hey, it's a simple rule, if you do something complicated, you will make bugs. The old Navision culture had this kind of "stick to what is simple and proven to work" way of thinking, and while it is far from being a good ERP it at least allowed us to easily turn it into a good ERP. I am afraid it will disappear...

If you don't mind some philosophy: I think it is one of the most important problems in the world even outside software/tech that we alway want to create perfect solutions and while doing it we manage to create something that's even much worse than it was. I mean the West wanted to help the world that people should not die of hunger or illness and what we got now? Terrible overpopulation that will can result in the death of billions in one or two generations. Don't aim for the perfect. Stick to what is simple, works well and only improve it very, very cautiously. Better a sould and simple solution than a sophisticated and brittle one.

Some "genius" in Axapta development thought that it is such a stone age solution that you have 30 or 50 or whatever character available for the name of an item, why not make a memo field making it virtually unlimited size? A nice idea, isn't it? And what happened? There are no item descriptions or orders, invoices etc., only the numbers. An amazingly bad solution. The first thing every Axapta consultant company does is to change it. And how do they supposed to print it on documents?
This a clear example of over-improving things. The good, old, simple solution of having an item description of 30 chars and nothing more means you can print it on any document and have no problem copying it to other tables in a posting process. Over-improving things generally means breaking things...

But I think the big corporations will never understand it...

kine

Yes, the product is going to be too complicated. Of course, I understand Microsoft, that they want to sell as much products as they can. It is why they want to indegrate the MRP into all other products. And there are still things, without them we are not able to say if it will be good or bad. For example all this need very good license policy, else the ERP will be too expansive for small companies, too complicated for mid-size etc...