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NAV 2013 - An Open Letter to the NAV Dev. Team
OldNavDog
Member Posts: 88
[rant]
Let me start by saying that there is a LOT to like in NAV 2013!!!
However...
It's been what, THREE major releases of the RTC Client now (and a couple of "Service Packs" and dozens of "Hot Fixes" and "Updates"), and STILL the RTC Client simply CRASHES ON LAUNCH if you so much as look at it sideways! (Sorry, U.S. slang phrase, meaning "for little or no apparent reason").
And the "fix" is (almost) ALWAYS the same: Recompile EVERYTHING, and the problem magically goes away. Fifteen minutes of your life you'll never get back; but if you are accessing the database through a VPN, etc. and can't "Remote In" to the server that is hosting the database, you will DIE before the Compile completes (I tried it once. Didn't even finish OVERNIGHT)...
So, my question is this: Can't the RTC Client code be made to be a LITTLE more "Fault-Tolerant"? I would fully expect this type of thing on a First-Generation "Alpha" release; but as I said, we're several YEARS into the RTC changeover, and STILL the thing is astonishingly FRAGILE...
Say what you will about the Classic Client; but I have RARELY seen it just fold up and go home like the RTC does.
"Metadata corruption" be DAMNED. If the RTC "Object Launcher" (whatever it is actually named) encounters "Bad" Metadata, CAN'T IT SIMPLY DETECT IT (there IS some sort of checksum built into the Metadata Structure, isn't there?!? SURELY the NAV Architects aren't that stupid!), REBUILD IT AND RE-ATTEMPT A LAUNCH?!? I'm SURE that a user would MUCH rather wait a few more seconds for the "self-repair" to happen, than have the Client REPEATEDLY Crash...
But, far, far worse, I have also discovered (the hard way, of course!) that if the "crashing" problem is due to certain SETTINGS, like which Role Center is being used, FORGET "RUNNING" A TABLE TO SIMPLY FIX THE DATA!!! Since Table "Running" REQUIRES the RTC to FULLY LAUNCH, YOU CAN GET INTO A SITUATION IN NAV 2013 WHERE THERE IS NO WAY TO FIX A BAD CONFIGURATION, BECAUSE THE RTC WON'T COME UP ENOUGH TO DISPLAY THE TABLE!!!
Hideous. Just. Inexcusably. Hideous.
MICROSOFT SERIOUSLY NEEDS TO RESTORE ENOUGH "CLASSIC EXECUTION" FUNCTIONALITY TO THE DEVELOPMENT ENVIRONMENT TO ALLOW A TABLE TO DISPLAY/EDIT THE DATA VALUES (I don't care about the Triggers NOT Executing) DIRECTLY IN THE DEV. ENVIRONMENT FORMERLY KNOWN AS "CLASSIC"!!!
Is anyone else bothered by this???
C'mon Guys! Don't you USE this stuff?!?
...and don't even get me started on the abomination that is the RDLC Report Designer in VS2010. Stretching the term "WYSIWYG" (not to mention "Ease-Of-Use") to the breaking-point...
Thanks for Listening (I hope!)
[/rant]
Let me start by saying that there is a LOT to like in NAV 2013!!!
However...
It's been what, THREE major releases of the RTC Client now (and a couple of "Service Packs" and dozens of "Hot Fixes" and "Updates"), and STILL the RTC Client simply CRASHES ON LAUNCH if you so much as look at it sideways! (Sorry, U.S. slang phrase, meaning "for little or no apparent reason").
And the "fix" is (almost) ALWAYS the same: Recompile EVERYTHING, and the problem magically goes away. Fifteen minutes of your life you'll never get back; but if you are accessing the database through a VPN, etc. and can't "Remote In" to the server that is hosting the database, you will DIE before the Compile completes (I tried it once. Didn't even finish OVERNIGHT)...
So, my question is this: Can't the RTC Client code be made to be a LITTLE more "Fault-Tolerant"? I would fully expect this type of thing on a First-Generation "Alpha" release; but as I said, we're several YEARS into the RTC changeover, and STILL the thing is astonishingly FRAGILE...
Say what you will about the Classic Client; but I have RARELY seen it just fold up and go home like the RTC does.
"Metadata corruption" be DAMNED. If the RTC "Object Launcher" (whatever it is actually named) encounters "Bad" Metadata, CAN'T IT SIMPLY DETECT IT (there IS some sort of checksum built into the Metadata Structure, isn't there?!? SURELY the NAV Architects aren't that stupid!), REBUILD IT AND RE-ATTEMPT A LAUNCH?!? I'm SURE that a user would MUCH rather wait a few more seconds for the "self-repair" to happen, than have the Client REPEATEDLY Crash...
But, far, far worse, I have also discovered (the hard way, of course!) that if the "crashing" problem is due to certain SETTINGS, like which Role Center is being used, FORGET "RUNNING" A TABLE TO SIMPLY FIX THE DATA!!! Since Table "Running" REQUIRES the RTC to FULLY LAUNCH, YOU CAN GET INTO A SITUATION IN NAV 2013 WHERE THERE IS NO WAY TO FIX A BAD CONFIGURATION, BECAUSE THE RTC WON'T COME UP ENOUGH TO DISPLAY THE TABLE!!!
Hideous. Just. Inexcusably. Hideous.
MICROSOFT SERIOUSLY NEEDS TO RESTORE ENOUGH "CLASSIC EXECUTION" FUNCTIONALITY TO THE DEVELOPMENT ENVIRONMENT TO ALLOW A TABLE TO DISPLAY/EDIT THE DATA VALUES (I don't care about the Triggers NOT Executing) DIRECTLY IN THE DEV. ENVIRONMENT FORMERLY KNOWN AS "CLASSIC"!!!
Is anyone else bothered by this???
C'mon Guys! Don't you USE this stuff?!?
...and don't even get me started on the abomination that is the RDLC Report Designer in VS2010. Stretching the term "WYSIWYG" (not to mention "Ease-Of-Use") to the breaking-point...
Thanks for Listening (I hope!)
[/rant]
Experience is what you get, when you don't get what you want. --Anon.
0
Comments
AP Commerce, Inc. = where I work
Getting Started with Dynamics NAV 2013 Application Development = my book
Implementing Microsoft Dynamics NAV - 3rd Edition = my 2nd book
Independent Consultant/Developer
blog: https://dynamicsuser.net/nav/b/ara3n
I don't recognize your experience at all, NAV 2013 in all its incarnations has worked wonderfully for me, very stable, very quick, very responsive in my experience. Catastrophic errors like that are usually traced back to version conflicts, say for instance when a variety of different versions are installed at the same time. The classic components had no problems with that but RTC bits are very sensitive to versions. Once I started using separate VM's for separate versions, issues like that don't happen for me anymore. Now I don't like that any more than the next guy, but it is what it is. Once I stopped fighting that, no more such problems for me. Sucks big time because it's an enormous hard drive hog, but that's the only way I could eliminate my problems.
About using the Visual Studio designer... it's not meant to be wysiwyg, and knowing how to use it is just a matter of practice, I'm not even going to argue. The new report capabilities run wide circles around anything you can with the classic designer.
RIS Plus, LLC
MVP - Business Apps
MS made a really strange decision when they started with the service tier.
MS decided to let the classic client build the application objects while they must have known that the classic client was going to die someday.
If the service tier was able to build the application objects it could all be lot more stable.
IMHO it should have been (and should be) priority 1 to transfer this functionality to the service tier. [-o<
For the same reason we lost the IMPORTOBJECTS and EXPORTOBJECTS commands.
Object Manager
In transitioning NAV to the new architecture, we have prioritized the runtime over the design time, and that is why the Development Environment is still the Classic one. (A fact that by the way should protect a lot of the investments made in using C/SIDE over the years)
As a consequence, design time features that used to be accessible directly from C/AL have been discontinued, examples include compiling and importing objects and altering the Fields virtual table.
In NAV2013 we have added some command line options, see http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh165406(v=nav.70).aspx, that you might find interesting, if you have C/AL code that does design time stuff. You'll need to do some work to invoke finsql.exe and sometimes you will also need to rethink how to achieve the goal of that code.
Lars Hammer
Architect, Microsoft Dynamics NAV
Do tell. What is the difference between doing an "F11" Compile, and using that Command?
However, the IMPORTOBJECTS and EXPORTOBJECTS have been "reborn", sort of, as arguments to finsql.exe
I tried it out, and it's actually interesting; because it just seems to spin up its own instance of NAV, or at least enough of it to do what needs doing. My only gripe is that it seems like the only way you can tell that it's actually doing something is to look at the process in Windows' Task Manager. It does work. I was able to export a whole database's worth of objects as Text in about 10 minutes (don't know why it took so long, but oh, well).
So, none of us who have become dependent on IMPORTOBJECTS and EXPORTOBJECTS have been left out in the cold. We just have to re-think and re-write some steps.
Oh, IIRC there is a "Compile Objects" command-line "switch", too. Still have to have the proper Licensing; but at least it can be done.
Thanks, Lars for your rapid and thoughtful response!
I have checked out the finsql.exe command-line "switches", and in fact do have at least one "add-on" that uses IMPORTOBJECTS and EXPORTOBJECTS that I was ever-so-glad to see the finsql.exe commands to still support it.
However, your post still doesn't address the rather serious problem that "bad" (incorrect "settings", not "corrupt") data in a Table CAN create a situation where the RTC won't launch "enough" to actually FIX the problem. This is a very serious limitation, and one that is brand-new. Never before in the history of NAV has the incorrect configuration of "setup" data made a situation that could not be corrected from either the Application itself, or, at the very least, by "Running" a table from Object Designer, and "fixing" the data "by hand". But that CAN happen in 2013, if, for example, entries in the User or User Personalization table get messed-up.
One thing I will urge everyone to do with new 2013 databases: Immediately set up a User that has a SPECIFIC Role Center that is NOT the Default Role Center (and preferably one that has a lot of access). That way, at least ONE User will be able to log in if something happens to the Default Role Center, and "fix things".
You say that the new report capabilties run wide circles around anything you can with the classic designer. That hasn't been the experience of me or anyone else I've talked with. I'm not talking about embedding reports within reports, or putting charts in reports, or that stuff. All of that is cool; but where it all falls down is in the little stuff. The stuff we all have to do all the time: Take this existing Report and add stuff from this other related table right "here", above the other two existing "sections".
It seems like it doesn't really matter how you arrange nested Groups, either in the Dataset Designer, or on the Layout, they will print out in the order they feel like. Worse yet, grabbing a Data Item and its associated "Columns" in the Dataset Designer sometimes creates bizarre problems. There is some relationship between the order of Data Items (even those that are "peers") and the order that nested groups evenutally print; but it is a non-obvious (and from what I can tell, completely undocumented) one.
Please point me to the documentation that explains how I can avoid having to completely rebuild a report from scratch, just to get a set of nested (Layout) groups to print in the order I want.
NAV team made a decision not to spend the time on a wizard for 2013, instead to provide Classic report conversion. Expect we will see a wizard in the next release. In the meantime, we will need to learn the nuts and bolts - we will thank them or that later!
http://mibuso.com/blogs/davidmachanick/
Hate to tell Microsoft "I told you so", but I told you so. So much for partners all voting to want to improve the report conversion tools rather than having a good wizard or report creating experience. It's absolutely the wrong way to go about this.
I suspect as more developers are going through this process, more posts like this will pop up.
Believe me when I say that I've expressed grief to my Microsoft contact multiple times on things like this already. We can only hope that things will be better. On the other hand, you can get your clients to use Jet Reports Express. This is a lot better than the standard NAV RDLC reporting.
AP Commerce, Inc. = where I work
Getting Started with Dynamics NAV 2013 Application Development = my book
Implementing Microsoft Dynamics NAV - 3rd Edition = my 2nd book
I'd love to learn the nuts and bolts; if they were documented anywhere!
I grew up as an assembly-language programmer. "Wizards" I don't need. Documentation is what I need. Know where any is, without me having to spend US$400 (just a guess) on a bunch of books that regurgitate the same stuff for 98%, are out-of-date for 99%, and then have one or two pages that have some "real" info in them?
Or this book:
http://www.packtpub.com/microsoft-dynam ... rting/book
AP Commerce, Inc. = where I work
Getting Started with Dynamics NAV 2013 Application Development = my book
Implementing Microsoft Dynamics NAV - 3rd Edition = my 2nd book
/Claus Lundstrøm
I'm blogging here:http://mibuso.com/blogs/clausl and used to blog here: http://blogs.msdn.com/nav
I'm also offering RDLC Report Training, ping me if you are interested. Thanks to the 700 NAV developers that have now already been at my training. You know you can always call if you have any RDLC report issues :-)
WOW!
Claus, I would LOVE to take you up on your most generous and gracious offer; but unfortunately, I will not be personally attending the U.S. 2012 Directions; however, others from the company I work for will most certainly be there. With your permission, I may pass along this offer to others in my organization. Reports are something we all struggle with, to one degree or another, and even a quick tips & tricks session with a Navision God like you would be MOST illuminating!!!
I will PM you on this. I'd like to work out details on this incredible offer...
Reporting in NAV 2013 has improved dramatically compared to NAV 2009, but I understand why you are struggling, because the Reporting Tools are much different from what we have been used to. So we all need to invest some time to learn how to do reports in NAV 2013. As time permits I will be here at Mibuso to shorten that investment for you guys, with the knowledge I have, and of course do blog post with tips and tricks. I.e. look out for a post on my blog soon for how to simplify the document reports in NAV 2009 and NAV 2013. In my opinion the standard document reports are unnecessary complex.
But with that the said the NAV Dev. Team worked really hard to make the report design experience rock solid in NAV 2013. This goes not just for Reporting, but for the NAV 2013 product overall. The amount of qualified testing which have gone into NAV 2013 is mind blowing, and not something we have seen in any previous releases. NAV 2013 is just rock solid, and with the release today we have a new ERP product which is second to none in market and our customers will love it. I already have a customer running live on the NAV 2013 Beta, and among many Things, they are extremely happy about the performance in the new RTC.
With that said the NAV Dev. Team still have lots of work in the future, because we of course want more features. But what they have accomplished with NAV 2013, I actually think we should give them credit and let them party a day or 2.
/Claus Lundstrøm
I'm blogging here:http://mibuso.com/blogs/clausl and used to blog here: http://blogs.msdn.com/nav
I'm also offering RDLC Report Training, ping me if you are interested. Thanks to the 700 NAV developers that have now already been at my training. You know you can always call if you have any RDLC report issues :-)
I looked on PartnerSource, but can't find any reference to that manual. I eventually found a link on Google for what appears to be a decidedly non-free 2-day Course. What am I missing? (Besides a brain!). Here's the link I found:
http://www.microsoft.com/learning/en/us ... cale=en-us
=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>
There should be a PDF download available unless they took it down.
AP Commerce, Inc. = where I work
Getting Started with Dynamics NAV 2013 Application Development = my book
Implementing Microsoft Dynamics NAV - 3rd Edition = my 2nd book
FOR EXAMPLE, how many times have I found that a group that is in the table group list but NOT referenced in any of the table levels is, nevertheless and for some unknown reason, still causing my report to not print.
ANOTHER battle is in reports that are a no-brainer in Classic have to be totally reworked in RTC with List boxes and multiple tables, e.g. reports with multiple data items at the same level, or comments in both header and line.
It took literally writing 50 to 100 of these reports to learn all of this by running the gauntlet of these many frustrations. I think most of us could put to good use an "Advanced" or "Secrets of" RTC Visual Studio Report Writing class.
](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)
Dynamics West
http://www.dynamicswest.com
That wont happen because people are not willing to pay for training these days.
Dynamics West
http://www.dynamicswest.com
RIS Plus, LLC
MVP - Business Apps
So I'm NOT just getting too old to learn new stuff?!? WHEW! I was beginning to wonder...
\:D/ \:D/ \:D/
I am coming into this from old NAV experience. 2013 is my first exposure to the Joys of RDLC.
At this point, I'm about ready to renounce Computers Forever!!! :roll:
I can't find that blasted 80146B Manual (complete or not!) ANYWHERE!!! And the question is, where is the Equivalent for 2013?!? I've watched some videos and poured through tutorials, but most of the stuff (EVEN IN THE 2013 BETA HELP FILES) (and yes, I was yelling there
It's one thing to learn something that training materials match-up to, then learn the changes to those methods (which is bad enough!); but to try and learn something which training materials don't match is damn-near impossible!!!
I've been at this a month, and every time I think "Ok, I've got this..." I try out another feature (this week, it's embedded Charts), and I'm right smack at the bottom of a steep learning curve again.
I know several computer languages, have decades of experience creating reports in many reporting packages, and I have never had one one-thousandth (and that's being conservative) of the trouble I've had doing anything past the most fundamental reporting tasks in this abomination. It simply cannot be "me". So, David, Thank You for confirming my suspicions.
One cannot just simply build something, especially not something as arcane, complex and maddeningly non-intuitive as RDLC Reporting in NAV and then leave the annoying, unglamorous "documentation" part out... How long has this been in Development? Can't somebody (cough... Microsoft... cough...) hire a Technical Writer?!? I'm sure this economy will find plenty of available talented Tech Writers... :roll: :roll: :roll:
Oh, and I'd be very willing to pay for a book, if there was one. But I'm not paying for a book that is already obsolete. From what I can find, there are basically one or two tutorials that match up with 2013 Reporting. Even the Walkthoughs in the 2013 (Beta, yes; but...) NAV Help Files have 2009 Examples mixed in with 2013 examples!!!. And the Beta of 2013 was released what, like about a month before the 2013 Product Launch?
So, after all this whining on my part, I guess my question is: Is there any place to find 2013 Reporting Documentation, PDFs, Websites, Textbooks, Messages-In-Bottles (couldn't resist!), or something? Anything?
The NAV team is VERY much aware of the demand for good training material, and there are big plans to provide some really good stuff. You only have to look at all the partner readiness material to see how much work they are putting into this one. Also, I would not be surprised if there are already one or two non-Microsoft authors working on NAV 2013 development books, and I have a feeling that a couple of regulars in this forums will be very active with instructional material.
NAV 2013 hasn't even come out, I think we should all take a chill pill and be a bit more patient.
RIS Plus, LLC
MVP - Business Apps
I agree with Denster about the hard worrk but dont have any problem with the complaints and rants. Why? because this forum can help us all to learn from each other. About the problematic reports..can't you use the 2013 report converter. I read somewhere that it does a pretty good job and am downloading the latest 2013 to try this out.