Build a webshop on top of NAV

TysAGP · 2009-02-02

Hi ya all,

For i while i have been researching the idea of building a webshop on top of NAV.
For the latest version of NAV, webservices seem the ideal way to make my ASP.NET shop talk with the NAV database.
But, one problem came up; it looks like the extra license you need to be able to use those webservice is quite expensive. Specially for our smaller clients this price is not suitable. So i'm looking for a cheaper solution.

Has anyone got an idea?

I've found out that for Dynamics GP there is an API called eConnect. And it lets you communicatie with the GP database for free. (at least i think it's free)
Is there something similar for NAV?

Is the ODBC driver something i can use?

Regards, Tys

ara3n · 2009-02-02

Based on this link https://mbs.microsoft.com/partnersource ... es_NAV.htm

Any access to the data requires a license if you are interacting with the data. For external users a web shop users (customers), you'll need to external connector, which is free right now for existing customers till July. If you are building a BI solution, writing sql reports, using MS access, or integrating with 3rd party POS system, if those users are your employee, you need a license, if they are not you need external connector license.

TysAGP · 2009-02-02

Okay, thanks for the information. Reading this makes me conclude that there isn't really a cheaper or more expensive technique to setup that webshop. Regardless of what technique you use, you always need that $5000 external connector license, right?

If you say it's free untill July for existing customers, (i couldn't find that info in the partnersource document) does that mean that those existing customers will have to start paying after that date for solutions that are build before that date? Or can those apps/customers still connect for free, after that date?

ara3n · 2009-02-02

Yes, regardless of the connection, the client needs license.

Regarding the offer, you can find it here.

https://mbs.microsoft.com/Cms/Templates ... RNODEGUID={0474E522-3266-47E7-BA3D-F7953000423F}&NRORIGINALURL=/partnersource/sales/promotions/h209navexconoffer.htm?printpage=false&NRCACHEHINT=Guest&printpage=false&wa=wsignin1.0

if they purchase the granule before June 26, 2009. then they don't have pay 5K when they implement webshop solution.

ara3n · 2009-02-02

the link dones't work

https://mbs.microsoft.com/Cms/Templates/document/General.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRNODEGUID={0474E522-3266-47E7-BA3D-F7953000423F}&NRORIGINALURL=/partnersource/sales/promotions/h209navexconoffer.htm?printpage=false&NRCACHEHINT=Guest&printpage=false&wa=wsignin1.0

TysAGP · 2009-02-02

Thanks for your help ara3n. It's all quite clear now.
Guess that for those smaller/smallest clients we'll have to find another creative way of bringing data to their webshop..

Ideas are welcome.. :idea:

David_Singleton · 2009-02-02

TysAGP wrote:

Thanks for your help ara3n. It's all quite clear now.
Guess that for those smaller/smallest clients we'll have to find another creative way of bringing data to their webshop..

Ideas are welcome.. :idea:

I am actually in a similar situation my self right now. I normally work with very large clients, where "doing it right" makes sense. But I am helping one very small company out right now and they basically need web services to connect.

The client is on 5.00sp1 with support, so assuming they only need to do a technical upgrade to 2009 executables, what other granules do they need, and what will that cost? Middle tier? external connector? what else?

ara3n · 2009-02-02

Granule 2140 – NAV 2009 – Free as part of enhancement
External Connector 2510 – free as part of NAV 2009 promotion
1 Dynamics NAV Server -9100 - $ 675

David_Singleton · 2009-02-02

ara3n wrote:

Granule 2140 – NAV 2009 – Free as part of enhancement
External Connector 2510 – free as part of NAV 2009 promotion
1 Dynamics NAV Server -9100 - $ 675

Thanks Rashed.

So really quite cheap, does this mean then that in fact there is no charge for Web Services, all that is paid for is the connector (after the promotion ends) and the middle tier server of course.

So why is everyone saying that its so expensive?

ara3n · 2009-02-02

The external connector is for non employees only.

For employees you need DCO license which is 200 per user. For example if a company uses web time entry internally. had have about 1000 or more employees all posting time through web, and you would have to purchase a license for each one.

Also the external connector is applies for existing customer. New customers have to purchase it for 5K.

bbrown · 2009-02-03

The External Connector only covers the NAV licensing. You must also license SQL for the external users. If you are exposing to the public internet, where you can't control the number of users, then you must license SQL for unlimited users. This means processor licensing. This licensing also applies to the operating sysytems on which these components run.

Adair · 2009-02-03

Slightly off the topic of building a web-shop with NAV, I am in the middle of designing a NAV solution that highlights how expensive this new DCO licensing can get:

* Large company with a relatively small administration function (only 15 concurrent users) wants to use Dynamics NAV

* Company wants to distribute a few reports to their large number of remote salespeople (550 salespeople (employees, not contractors) with access to the company’s Intranet)

Solution:

* Create an SQL Analysis Services cube (updated daily) with sales information on a separate server to the server running NAV's SQL Server database - not going through any NAV logic, any NAV web service or any tier of NAV – straight from the SQL Server database that NAV also uses

* Create the relevant reports using SQL Reporting Services, which are published in an Internet browser using standard SQL Reporting Services functionality and have them published on the company’s Intranet (not using SharePoint)

* Remote salespeople can log into the company’s Intranet and see the reports filtered for their particular settings due to the company’s Intranet’s interaction with Active Directory

Due to the new NAV software licensing, this solution is now 500 x cost of the DCO-WSS license = 550 x $245 here in Australia ($200 in the US) = $134,750 (plus 16% BREP = $156,310)

Cost of this component of the solution before this newly released NAV software licensing = $0!!!

Obviously I need to pay for an SQL processor license and Windows CALS, which is required before and after this new NAV software licensing, but my solution is now $156,310 more expensive overnight and out of reach of my prospect.

If I am wrong or if there is another solution I am missing, please let me know.

Kind regards,
Adair

P.S. I don't believe this solution would have required "Web Users" before this new licensing because: "The required number of Web Users is equal to the number of internal users that access the front end of the solution"... but again I am happy to be corrected.

ara3n · 2009-02-03

For existing larger companies that have these integrations where internal employee use Navision data. Moving to 2009 will be a shocking license experience.
Fully upgrading to 2009 will be expensive and then the licensing for DCO, that a lot will look for other ERP solutions.
Most of thsse companies have about 100 reports. MS has estimated at 8 to 16 hours per report to upgrade.
At a rate of lets say 100 Dollars an hour and lets say it takes 8 hours per report. We are talking about 80K to upgrade just 100 reports.

TysAGP · 2009-02-03

Hi guys,

Thanks for all the information. No really on topic anymore, but that doesn't make it any less useful.

If you've got some more interesting licensing info, keep me updated.

Regards, Tys

David_Singleton · 2009-02-03

bbrown wrote:

The External Connector only covers the NAV licensing. You must also license SQL for the external users. If you are exposing to the public internet, where you can't control the number of users, then you must license SQL for unlimited users. This means processor licensing. This licensing also applies to the operating sysytems on which these components run.

And what is the cost of a per processor license? In this particular case the client has two sockets, but I do have another client with an 8 socket machine (8 x dual core xeon) on enterprise, that will be expensive.

bbrown · 2009-02-03

David Singleton wrote:

bbrown wrote:

The External Connector only covers the NAV licensing. You must also license SQL for the external users. If you are exposing to the public internet, where you can't control the number of users, then you must license SQL for unlimited users. This means processor licensing. This licensing also applies to the operating sysytems on which these components run.

And what is the cost of a per processor license? In this particular case the client has two sockets, but I do have another client with an 8 socket machine (8 x dual core xeon) on enterprise, that will be expensive.

A SQL processor license (for Enterprise) is $25,000 per processor socket (list) plus Software Assurance. Standard Edition is considerably less, but most sites doin this would likely be running Enterprise.

David_Singleton · 2009-02-03

bbrown wrote:

A SQL processor license (for Enterprise) is $25,000 per processor socket (list) plus Software Assurance. Standard Edition is considerably less, but most sites doin this would likely be running Enterprise.

Actually the issue is for the small client, they just have a 2 socket machine with SQL Standard. How much cheaper is that then?

Also, currently their system works by exporting an XML file. This is read into their MySQL database and then the web system takes orders. The orders are then read back into NAV by another XML port.

So following this rather bizarre and convoluted process, one could say that an unlimited no of web users are able to access data in the Navision database and the SQL database. Does this mean even with XML ports they still need to pay for additional licensing.

This is getting weirder and weirder. :-k

bbrown · 2009-02-03

The license cost for SQL standard is around $6000 per processor socket.

Based on the information I've gotten from Microsoft, I don't think your XML scenario would make a difference.

From SQL Licensing:

MULTIPLEXING: USE OF MIDDLEWARE, TRANSACTION SERVERS, AND MULTITIERED ARCHITECTURES

Sometimes organizations develop network scenarios that use various forms of hardware and/or software that reduce the number of devices or users that directly access or use the software on a particular server, often called multiplexing or pooling hardware or software. Use of such multiplexing or pooling hardware and/or software does not reduce the number of CALs required to access or use SQL Server software. A CAL is required for each distinct device or user that is connected to the multiplexing or pooling software or hardware front end.

This is true no matter how many tiers of hardware or software exist between the SQL Server and the client devices that ultimately use its data, services or functionality. An exception to this includes the manual transfer of data from employee to employee. For example, if an employee sends an Excel version of a report to another employee, the receiving employee does not require a CAL (as long as the report does not access a SQL Server in some way). An additional exception is communication exclusively between SQL servers

You can download the entire document at http://download.microsoft.com/download/ ... final.docx

David_Singleton · 2009-02-03

Whilst I can understand most of the logic,

bbrown wrote:

This is true no matter how many tiers of hardware or software exist between the SQL Server and the client devices that ultimately use its data, services or functionality.

Is rather frightening. The ramification s are huge. For example if I have EDI on NAV, then the chain of links means I need to use CPU based licencing.

Clearly direct interface to SQL is not important, even XML and for that mater, even using a dataport to import or export data to another system. Basically if you have any connection to the outside world you are pretty much screwed.

I wonder how many NAV implementations are 100% legal by this definition. definitely it prices NAV out of many markets. Further to this, I gather that this is not new, so its not just the license cost of upgrading to NAV 2009, but even existing clients on SQL with any verision of NAV.

bbrown · 2009-02-03

The bottom line is that you need to license the users that are accessing the system. In the example of EDI, you would know how many user so you could use CALS. With an anonymous site you have no control over the number of users. Therefore you must license for unlimited users. That's what processor licensing does.

David_Singleton · 2009-02-03

bbrown wrote:

In the example of EDI, you would know how many user so you could use CALS.

Not in all cases. I have a client that uses EDI to accept drop ship orders from their client and the items are dropshipped to the final customer. That customer enters the order on a web shop type interface, where there are an unlimiited no of users.

In the scenario described, this would also require unlimited licensing right?

Do they appy real world logic to case by case scenarios, or how does it work in the real world. Logiclaly this scenario shoulod not be considered as unlimited users, but the letter of the law would state that it is.

I can now see the issues with the case described in another post baout post code databases. This really is a huge can of worms and very complex to resolve.

By the way, since I don't sell SQL, I really never get into the licensing side. So I really appreciate your input to this thread, its helping me a lot.

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