Navision - Big HeadAche for Client

valanr · 2007-12-04

Dear All
We have implemented Navision(SQL 2005) for some of our clients.
The server placed in HeadOffice due to to the security restrications.
They got dozens of warehouse locations all around india each loactions having 10 concurrent users .
Any kind of system should work with this environment in this trending world.
But its amazing that "Navision wont work" for this kind.
Microsoft support suggesting for 100 MBPS of speed which is not available all around India.
They are telling couple of reasons also for that "Navision is FAT Client"
Then why they are relesing "Indian Versions" :oops:
And they are suggesting for Terminal Server or Citrix.Whether microsoft thought the client as a MAD for investing with TS ?.
Cant microsoft having shame to say this "Go for Terminal Server Bla Bla
Even a legacy package developed with little effort will work with low transfer rate and with low latency.
The client saying that "I was cheated and totally disappointed"
Why Microsoft releases Warehouse with this issues ?

Regards

Valan

kash · 2007-12-04

I think for Terminal server u hav to buy only CAL for the clients which cost $60-70 per CAL and 2003 Server.

Malajlo · 2007-12-04

Huh... tough words...

Try connecting directly (using VPN) and change object cache on client to bigger value.
Then you should hide all (ok, most of them) flowFields from forms.
Do not use maximized windows, especially on 21" displays.
Users should use functionality of AltSearchField (not using lookup forms everytime)

NF 2.0 worked on ISDN (64k) years ago quite well.

bbrown · 2007-12-04

Microsoft publishes no claim that their product will run over low speed networks. So why was the customer lead to believe this? This seem more like a misinformed customer. How is that Microsoft's fault.

[/i]

DenSter · 2007-12-04

You obviously thought that NAV was a thin client that can connect directly over very weak remote connections. And you are right to some extent that it is probably possible to develop an application that would work in that scenario.

NAV is what it is. We can argue about specifications from now until eternity, but the fact remains that it is what it is. In a nutshell, NAV is a fat client that pulls all the data to the client session, does the processing there and sends the processed data back. With remote locations you have to have something like Citrix or TS in place to connect, it is the only way. There may be other, cheaper, products out there, but you will have to have a remote connection solution LIKE Citrix in place that hosts the NAV session close to the NAV database server.

Nobody in their right mind would ever recommend NAV if Citrix/TS is out of the question, because even with the most powerful remote connections, it will slow down to a crawl over direct connections. There is just too much data to process.

Either you were misinformed about this, or you misunderstood it. I am sorry that you are in this situation, and I don't mean to be insensitive about it, but that is not due to the architecture of the application.

valanr · 2007-12-05

Dear all
Thank you for your kind replies.
If we try to connect 30 concurrent users in a server and doing complex operations means,I believe that the server wont perform as expected.
At that time is it possible to say to the client that "Your server is not performing well ....Please change the server".
Same time Head Office EDP Section will also connect through LAN with the same server.Maximum users will be around 25.
I think latest versions will be a conclution for this because it contains web integrated solutions.
Looking forward for your feedback

Regs

Valan

DenSter · 2007-12-05

Well you would never allow users to connect directly to the database server. The database server should be dedicated to hosting the database, and maybe one administrative client session, but never for any production connection of any heavy users.

The client sessions would live on a separate terminal server or Citrix machine. If you set that up correctly, Citrix will know how to balance the load across your Citrix machines. There are plenty of companies that have a whole bunch of Citrix servers for this particular purpose.

This is all general information that your partner should be able to provide for you. For a more detailed analysis you should get them involved and demand that an experienced architect becomes involved to help you set up the hardware side.

Eugene · 2007-12-05

Navision 6 will have thin client communicating with NAV application server (all the business rules that are on client side now will be on this server) via WCF protocol (Windows Communication Foundation)

DenSter · 2007-12-05

Eugene wrote:

Navision 6 will have thin client communicating with NAV application server (all the business rules that are on client side now will be on this server) via WCF protocol (Windows Communication Foundation)

No that is not true, it will not be a thin client.

themave · 2007-12-05

valanr wrote:

Dear All
We have implemented Navision(SQL 2005) for some of our clients.
The server placed in HeadOffice due to to the security restrications.
They got dozens of warehouse locations all around india each loactions having 10 concurrent users .
Any kind of system should work with this environment in this trending world.
But its amazing that "Navision wont work" for this kind.
Microsoft support suggesting for 100 MBPS of speed which is not available all around India.
They are telling couple of reasons also for that "Navision is FAT Client"
Then why they are relesing "Indian Versions" :oops:
And they are suggesting for Terminal Server or Citrix.Whether microsoft thought the client as a MAD for investing with TS ?.
Cant microsoft having shame to say this "Go for Terminal Server Bla Bla
Even a legacy package developed with little effort will work with low transfer rate and with low latency.
The client saying that "I was cheated and totally disappointed"
Why Microsoft releases Warehouse with this issues ?

Regards

Valan

I am glad you are not my solution center, how could you not understand the basic client archituture of Navision, and yet still have sold it to a client. I am an end user since 1999 version 2.0, and every piece of information I have ever seen about hardware guides ect. has talked about needing Citrix or Terminal server., this is before Microsoft even purchased Navision. Microsoft is not using Navision to push terminal server.

(they are using Navision to push SQL server) but that is not what you are talking about.

ara3n · 2007-12-06

Every time I read the title of the thread, I think somebody should give the client Advil.

idiot · 2007-12-06

Interesting reading...
Even Citrix can only do so much...
I would suggest looking back at the requirements again...

ssingla · 2007-12-06

Themave wrote

I am glad you are not my solution center, how could you not understand the basic client archituture of Navision, and yet still have sold it to a client. I am an end user since 1999 version 2.0, and every piece of information I have ever seen about hardware guides ect. has talked about needing Citrix or Terminal server., this is before Microsoft even purchased Navision. Microsoft is not using Navision to push terminal server.

(they are using Navision to push SQL server) but that is not what you are talking about.

Hard words, some may appreciate but everyone doesn't have the same privelleges as you have. Your knowledge is known to all but here Salespeople will go and sell anything. They do not care about fitment, solution approach etc. Later all the blames will be put on the delivery team for failing to meet expectation. The clients are also to blame who make the investment in the solution without thorough R&D/Study. A lot of them beleive that Navision will be installed and run just like MS Office.

kine · 2007-12-06

but here Salespeople will go and sell anything. They do not care about fitment, solution approach etc. Later all the blames will be put on the delivery team for failing to meet expectation.

It is same around the world... 8)

I never trust salesman when I am buying something.

And it is hard to explain the things to the sales team, because they do not want to hear them.

themave · 2007-12-06

ssingla wrote:

Themave wrote

I am glad you are not my solution center, how could you not understand the basic client archituture of Navision, and yet still have sold it to a client. I am an end user since 1999 version 2.0, and every piece of information I have ever seen about hardware guides ect. has talked about needing Citrix or Terminal server., this is before Microsoft even purchased Navision. Microsoft is not using Navision to push terminal server.

(they are using Navision to push SQL server) but that is not what you are talking about.

Hard words, some may appreciate but everyone doesn't have the same privelleges as you have. Your knowledge is known to all but here Salespeople will go and sell anything. They do not care about fitment, solution approach etc. Later all the blames will be put on the delivery team for failing to meet expectation. The clients are also to blame who make the investment in the solution without thorough R&D/Study. A lot of them beleive that Navision will be installed and run just like MS Office.

They may be hard words, but the poster doesn't appear to be part of the sales team, but instead part of the support team, and the post is taking a pretty harsh swipe at Navision, without really having a basic understanding of the program.

it is very true that many a salesperson will say anything, but that still doesn't make it acceptable.

valanr · 2007-12-07

Dear All
Thank you for for your kind replies.
May be i doesnt have basic understanding of the product as much the experts.But Navision is not a freeware.We are paying a lot for it.Sit and think about it "Experts".
Once again i thank all for your suggestions.

Regards

Valan

hrillo666 · 2007-12-07

There are two roads you can travel when developing a client for use over networks: Feature rich, immediate feedback style clients that only work on LAN:s basically because of the low latency requirement, such as the Dynamics NAV client.

Then there are the thin almost stateless userunfriendly clients such as web pages where you accept to wait for a second or twenty while you 'save' and don't get disappointed when you have to type things manually or wait for half a minute until the options load. Or 20 of them at least, the rest you will have to click 'Next' to access if at all.¨

NAV is what it is. You can push it in a different direction for a while, but it will still be what it is. With tthe 6.0 they are developing a lighter client but it still will be relatively heavy for a web client just to remain useful.

kine · 2007-12-07

hrillo666 wrote:

There are two roads you can travel when developing a client for use over networks: Feature rich, immediate feedback style clients that only work on LAN:s basically because of the low latency requirement, such as the Dynamics NAV client.

Then there are the thin almost stateless userunfriendly clients such as web pages where you accept to wait for a second or twenty while you 'save' and don't get disappointed when you have to type things manually or wait for half a minute until the options load. Or 20 of them at least, the rest you will have to click 'Next' to access if at all.¨

NAV is what it is. You can push it in a different direction for a while, but it will still be what it is. With tthe 6.0 they are developing a lighter client but it still will be relatively heavy for a web client just to remain useful.

But with 6.0 you can use Sharepoint to access the data, and it is somehow "thin" client... (you need just the browser...)

themave · 2007-12-07

valanr wrote:

Dear All
Thank you for for your kind replies.
May be i doesnt have basic understanding of the product as much the experts.But Navision is not a freeware.We are paying a lot for it.Sit and think about it "Experts".
Once again i thank all for your suggestions.

Regards

Valan

So what is it, your first post you say

"We have implemented Navision(SQL 2005) for some of our clients. "

so you are in fact the one selling it, now you say you paid a lot for it and are making it sound like you got burned because you bought it and it doesn't fit your needs.

Now, if you are a reseller and decided you were going to sell Dynamics Nav, based on a sales brochure somewhere, and you blindly sold it to others with no real knowledge of the product, how is Microsoft or us "experts" to blame for that?

You entire rant is one of two things.

1. as an end user you heard a sales pitch, bought a product based on that, and now it doesn't meet your needs. In which case a solution center really screwed you over, but you are still partly to blame, after all, it is your business and you should do due diligence when making such an important purchase. We certainly tested the solution just with the demo database over a wan link long before we signed on the dotted line.

or option

2. you are a solution center(I used that term lightly), who heard a sales pitch and decided you would sell this product to people without knowing anything about it, other then what the sale brochure said. In which case you really screwed a company over, but they share part of the blame for believing your sales pitch.

sorry if this sounds harsh, but some days I can't bite my tongue and this is one of them

ssingla · 2007-12-07

Just off topic : I am not justifying or questioning. I have worked on various ERP's inclusing SAP, Oracle, Ax and NAV and I have found NAV the best platform to work on. This is not a technical or feature comparision but the oppurtunities that I get on this product (also my personal taste to have a grasp on the complete scenario).

I have felt that NAV is better than any product in its segment and as with all the products it has for the time being several shortcomings. Through various interactions I always beleive people around the globe are working on these challenges and trying to improve the product.

Coming back on the issue, sometimes you are not the person making the decision and the author of the post seems to be like that only. You are stuck because of decisions made by others but you should try to sort the issues rather than complaining. "Where there is will there is way" is what I beleive in. Try to optimize the infrastructure and code in Navision to get the best performance. There will lot of people to lend you help.

Alex_Chow · 2007-12-07

ssingla wrote:

You are stuck because of decisions made by others but you should try to sort the issues rather than complaining.

You couldn't have said it better. Couldn't.

=D> =D> =D>

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