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I love classic client what about you?

zappyzappy Member Posts: 15
I love old Navision with classic client. Microsoft doesn’t. Is any possibility to save classic client? Is anyone there who agrees with me?

I guess that is only 2 way haw to save classic client
. Microsoft sells or gives the solution to someone else who will continue with development
. Someone new will create the solution
or .... or Navision classic is death :cry: .

I am not able to help with the first part - programing of engine. But I am prepared to help with second part - creating new business solutions.

I don't want to say that new version is bad, but the way is little bit confusing. Microsoft says that NAV is for small companies. I was able to do implementation with old version for 1-9 users alone, I know development in C/CAPS, accounting, logistics. I am able to do analyses, give customer solution which he need. But today I need to know much more ... MS SQL Server, programing in visual basic and much more knowledge. Can one person to know it? Yes, but to be good in all of it is almost impossible.

SO PLEASE GIVE MI SIMPLE SOLUTIONS LIKE OLD NAVISION!
Where I can do
- All development and consulting together
- I can come to customer and repair everything on the place, right on customer PC
- Customer can add column to report just in client
- You need one installation for everything
- Of course I have C/CAPS

This topic is for discussion
- Do you miss classic client?
- Do you think that old solution can be still useful especially for small companies to 10 users?
- Are you able to help with this?

Thanks for your tips, contacts, anything … maybe is not to late.
Tomas Zadrapa

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    KYDutchieKYDutchie Member Posts: 345
    Hi,

    I understand that change is difficult for some people, but you have to realize that the classic client has reached the end of its functional life.
    Granted, administration, development and application all in the same place would be nice, but I am sure that it will come to that soon.

    We cannot hang on to the past, simply because the world out there is changing fast. The classic client might do fine for some small customers that have a small private network. But it is those small customers that are usually the first to adapt new technologies like hosting a NAV version because they do not have the expertise in house to administer their servers properly. I have been to client sites where the server administrator position was assigned to the person who fiddled with a computer at home?

    Also did you know about Azure, cloud computing, hosted servers, online collaboration, etc. 10 years ago when the Classic Client was created? If NAV wants to remain successful in the future, it will have to adapt to the changing outside world. That means that things have to change within NAV, some changes you might like and some you might despise. But that is called progress.

    Don't get me wrong, I like the Classic Client but I also did like MS-DOS 3.30 and that isn't around anymore either.

    We make our money in one of the fasted evolving businesses in the world and we have to accept changes, good or bad.

    I hope this helps,

    Regards,

    Willy
    Fostering a homeless, abused child is the hardest yet most rewarding thing I have ever done.
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    zappyzappy Member Posts: 15
    `Thank, but your answer is about something else.
    I don't want to say anything about new version and possibilities they are ok. In Czech there we have big competition in small local systems. It's almost impossible to sell NAV for small customers and this is the problem. The best solution can be to save old NAV and find some price model for it.
    And believe me ... cloud and web solution (new client is something like web solution) is not for everybody. There still exist customers that prefer local solution with API client. And everything what I want is to give them possibility. It's wrong to say the world goes in other way and you are stupid that you want to have something else. Sorry but they will go to competition.
    Tomas Zadrapa
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    jglathejglathe Member Posts: 639
    Hi,
    zappy wrote:
    And believe me ... cloud and web solution (new client is something like web solution) is not for everybody. There still exist customers that prefer local solution with API client. And everything what I want is to give them possibility. It's wrong to say the world goes in other way and you are stupid that you want to have something else. Sorry but they will go to competition.

    That's about it in a nutshell. The catch is: Microsoft can do whatever it wants as long as it has the money to do it. Not listening to customers and/or partners seems to be an art form at Microsoft.

    with best regards

    Jens
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    Marije_BrummelMarije_Brummel Member, Moderators Design Patterns Posts: 4,262
    My suggestion would be to look at what development tools your competition uses and start using the same.

    I truly believe in repeatability via the cloud as MS wants us to, but I also understand that in regions where Internet is not stable it might be difficult.

    Here in The Netherlands we also see the competition moving to the cloud, most often with terrifiying technology like Unix applications in RDP. (Maybe exaggerating here a little).
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    einsTeIn.NETeinsTeIn.NET Member Posts: 1,050
    ...but I also understand that in regions where Internet is not stable it might be difficult.
    It's not only about instable internet connection, but also about the question if someone wants his data stored elsewhere. Security, depending on the cloud provider and the internet connection, legal issues, recovery and risk management, update and release management, trust, business espionage and so on... all this might be an influence in a customers decision for or against cloud hosting services.

    But this topic also aims at costs, implementation and maintenance workload, responsibility and contact persons and so on. This is pretty complex and hard to answer.
    "Money is likewise the greatest chance and the greatest scourge of mankind."
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    Marije_BrummelMarije_Brummel Member, Moderators Design Patterns Posts: 4,262
    We're talking small business here. People who don't have any clue about databases or where their data is. If a vendor they trust comes in and tells them the next release is in the cloud, they are relieved not having the server anymore.

    Anyway, this is here and the feedback I am getting from friends and other people that run small businesses. And believe me, I ask anyone I get a chance to ask. :mrgreen:
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    einsTeIn.NETeinsTeIn.NET Member Posts: 1,050
    Sorry, I didn't mean that anything is wrong or inexact in your comment. I just wanted to highlight that also other aspects might have an impact.

    If the customer hasn't got any clue about databases and where his data is stored then he also wouldn't know that he needs a stable internet connection. But the guy who knows, his ISV consultant, then should consider all of these aspects and decide if that's important for the customer or not. I mean every customer has his own opinion about security and so on. The consultant just needs to figure out what his customer would do if he would know about all of this.

    And I believe that not all small business customers are that unaware.
    "Money is likewise the greatest chance and the greatest scourge of mankind."
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    davmac1davmac1 Member Posts: 1,283
    Here in the USA, most small business run QuickBooks which costs about $200. They generally stay on QuickBooks until they either get too large for it - 10 users or too much data, or they need more functionality and starts getting too hard to do it with spreadsheets.
    With the rise of products like QuickBooks, products like NAV have had to move upstream, which NAV has done successfully - some of its older peers have faded.
    I think sticking with an older technology is a prescription for disaster.
    NAV will inevitably be losing the smaller, simpler customers and gaining the larger, more complex customers.
    Why would a small business want to pay for features they do not understand and need?
    Why would any of us want to do a project where the total budget is a fraction of a month's salary? Who has time to line up enough projects like that and do the work and stay in business?
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    Marije_BrummelMarije_Brummel Member, Moderators Design Patterns Posts: 4,262
    With current technology NAV also has the ability to move downstream.

    What we lack is usabilty, pricing, some basic functionalty and a stable internet connection.

    I think if these ingredients are mixed together well we could turn NAV into a high volume product using the cloud.

    I'm pretty sure people at Microsoft follow this thread and use the feedback, so please keep them comming.
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    davmac1davmac1 Member Posts: 1,283
    Microsoft has tried 2 tiered pricing and dumbed down products (Entrepreneur - NAV) and SBS (GP) without out enough success to continue it.
    What are you proposing for pricing?
    Why do you think Entrepreneur failed? It seemed like a good idea to me, but it never made it over to the US, and I never had a chance to look at it.
    At $3,000 per user in the US, we have priced the low end user out of the market, except for the marketing give aways.

    Usability - they could definitely work on that. I think they should take untrained users who use other packages and sit them down in a usability lab and observe them trying to use NAV.

    The Cloud - great when it works. It is especially useful for small businesses with several locations.
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    jglathejglathe Member Posts: 639
    Hi,

    "dumbing down" is quite dangerous IMO. It is surprising what even small businesses need in functionality. A good and comprehensive setup and local / industry template - hiding some of the complexity behind it - is a good thing. But all this has been tried (in a way, at least), AFAICR.
    Back to what zappy wrote: I'm with him, more or less. We now have a product which has a far too high entry ticket for small businesses. Also, creating packages for small businesses and serving it from the cloud isn't really viable, for varoius reasons, not the last one technology (multi-tenant setup, anyone?). And, IMO, it is nearly suicidal when you're selling anything report-related with NAV on the current stack. Putting the pain to learn this hideous report designer aside, it's like willingly walking into an ambush. What happens when my (small or not so small) customer calls me and complains on a bug or a missing "feature" in a report (which turns out to be a bug), or that it suddenly doesnt print on the new printer, or that it looks pants over terminal server... is that I'll have to spend time to fix things, mostly without being able to bill it (warranty, anyone?). When you ask "at arm's length" prices for the SLA, you' d price yourself out of business, even for not-so small clients. My former boss said: "Better no deal than a bad deal." He's right, I'd say.

    with best regards

    Jens
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    davmac1davmac1 Member Posts: 1,283
    As a developer, I like the report writer and the fact it is tied into Visual Studio's enhancement schedule - even if it stays a release behind.
    They obviously need to add an end user oriented reporting tool - since external tools do not know about NAV companies unless they are designed for NAV like Jet.
    I am guessing we will see one added in the next one or two years.
    I am also guessing people under NDA already know the answer to this.
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    zappyzappy Member Posts: 15
    Microsoft says that NAV is for small companies and AX for bigger. But where is the line ... is it 20 users? Because if it is 20 users, NAV can expect very hard live. In Czech we have the same we have competitions with good accounting and worse other thinks (logistics, sales and so) but much cheaper. These systems can be for 20 users haw can I sell NAV?

    My basic question was about my own employees and their knowledge. I must send them to next training (Visual Studio for example) and some of them are not able to personalize themself. We are small company and I must buy some specialist outside. It makes implementation more expensive and more expensive :(
    Tomas Zadrapa
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    Alex_ChowAlex_Chow Member Posts: 5,063
    I love classic client too. I can deliver solution much faster than RTC.

    But look at your competition. The new client is designed to move to the cloud based environment. When trying to sell to new customers, you look at the classic client and you look at your competition, classic client looks like an outdated system programmed in the 90s.

    People complained about the speed when they upgrade from DOS to Windows. This is no different.
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    Alex_ChowAlex_Chow Member Posts: 5,063
    By the way, I love everything about the RTC.

    The only thing that I hate is the RDLC reporting integration with NAV. It sucks so much I wish I can blow it up.
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