Forms, Classic reports, Dataports and Classic database R.I.P

Michael_Nielsen_[MSFT]

Classic forms, reports and dataports has been around since 1995 and a lot of people (including me) has had a hard time understand that they will be gone in V7. In V7 they are replaced by more mordern concepts: Pages, RDL reports and XML-port, which will now include dataport functionality.

The classic runtime and database is also gone, which enables C/AL to run 100% managed on .net with full Unicode support for data.

C/SIDE is the only thing left in the classic client which has been renamed to "Dynamics NAV Development Environment"

We know that these are huge changes to Dynamics NAV and we are planning a number of readiness activities globally to make sure that you all get an opportunity the get up to speed with NAV 7 beafore the launch!

If you dont believe me - just take look at the attached screenshot from V7.:)

Michael

mohana_cse06

Thanks Michael for the screenshot..

I can see new object type called query..can you explain the use of it in a few words..

Luc_VanDyck

Thx Michael for this information first hand. Hope you don't get into troubles now ;-)

I don't like the completely absence of the "Form" object type, but I understand your reasons.

Michael_Nielsen_[MSFT]

I thought you would notice it Mohana:)

We have not talked about Query in plublic yet and I cannot comment on it right now - but I left it in the screenshot for you to have something to look forward to on top of all the other goodies we still haven't talked about for V7

Stay tuned!

matttrax

I'm also interested in that new Codeunit 4 Don't suppose that's out of NDA yet?

Michael_Nielsen_[MSFT]

codeunit 4 is part of our refactoring of codeunit 1, which had become a huge swiss army knife over time.

Belias

it's really kind that you show something to the community, just a little and moderated buzz around NAV 7 can do just good!
now that we're talking about codeunit 1...what about making the system indicator "dynamic", without the need to close/reopen the client? It's a powerful feature that I (and i guess WE) want to ABuse! :whistle: :whistle: :whistle:
(I don't want an answer, I'm just throwing an idea...I think you're busy enough with more relevant things before the release)
Also, Have you ever thought about a "wishlist" webpage of nav 7, accessible to all customersource/partnersource accounts where we can suggest some new features etc? I know there's MS Connect, but we cannot post suggestions explicitly for the future releases.

matttrax

Try http://www.ILoveNAV.com

davmac1

There are 2 form types that don't translate well to pages:
1) Forms with a huge number of fields
2) Dispatch boards

As part of the pre-rollout, could you address solutions for these with RTC.
Right now it seems that these types of forms will need to be moved to .net with a web services interface to NAV.

Michael_Nielsen_[MSFT]

We have committed to read and prioritize all suggestions posted to MS connect, which is a lot of work and sucks up a lot of our PM’s bandwidth.

We don’t want to create additional wish lists from our side since we will not be able to read/process/digest/respond on what has been suggested.

However, we often look at iLoveNav, Mibuso and other sources for inspiration

Michael

Marije_Brummel

Thanks for sharing this with the community Michael, I will blog a link to this post and and a tweet if you don't mind.

I can imagine that not everyone in the Dynamics worlds crawls this forum each day like we do.

One question: Can you put the page button on the position where the form button used to be? 8)

Savatage

"Michael wrote:

"]will now include dataport functionality.

Oooooh

Alex_Chow

"Michael wrote:

"]The classic runtime and database is also gone, which enables C/AL to run 100% managed on .net with full Unicode support for data.

Does this mean we can have the Chinese version of NAV soon??? [-o<

Maci

Thanks for sharing, Michael!

Mark Brummel wrote:

One question: Can you put the page button on the position where the form button used to be? 8)

Yes! It would be very useful!

David_Singleton

Maci wrote:

Thanks for sharing, Michael!

Mark Brummel wrote:

One question: Can you put the page button on the position where the form button used to be? 8)

Yes! It would be very useful!

Alt-G works no matter where the button is.

Marije_Brummel

Does it help when I say that it works?

All the fields are nVarChar in SQL now.

Michael works with NAV since 1987 if I'm not mistaken, he's a techy like us, not a marketing guy. Trust him.

Marije_Brummel

I don't want to break my NDA.

All I can tell you, which is already over the line I guess, it that there is an automatic conversion to Unicode when you open a NAV6 database with a NAV7 runtime.

I tested the upgrade toolkit for the guys in Vedbaek and so far my own little production database which I only use myself as a freelancer is running stable on NAV7 for several weeks now.

Have faith!

Marije_Brummel

BlackTiger, please, calm down. This al works and has been taken care of.

We share the same worries, but running codeunits, running tables, testing framework, it al works as expected.

But yes, they all run in the RTC.

Sog

So the query object: don't take my word for it, but I think they are like stored procedures.
Which means that creating a custom dataset for <insert your very own idea here> and communication for webservices, reporting, ... will be easier, letting us focus even more on the business instead of the connection/formatting/...
Could this be confirmed when the NDA is passed?

David_Singleton

Sog wrote:

So the query object: don't take my word for it, but I think they are like stored procedures.

BlackTiger wrote:

Actually 'Query' exists (kind of) in NAV for many years - known as "linked object".
It's good to have it more integrated into NAV UI.

Guys don';t speculate in this fashion. Making incorrect statements and stating them as though they are facts doesn't help the community. Unfortunately for NDA reasons, we can't even tell you you are wrong, or if maybe you have part of the idea, but not all of it.

Part of the reason is that maybe these things are not finalized yet, and until they are, they wont be formerly announced.

Unfortunately rumors like this are not good, and only cause problems when the product is finally released and does not work "the way you expected".

Marije_Brummel

I agree on the conditional formatting. This is a huge shortcomming in the RTC.

Michael_Nielsen_[MSFT]

The reason "Run" was greyed out in the sceenshot is that I forgot to select a company:) Run will work like before, including running tabels - but with RTC instead of the classic client.

I am sorry for the noise I created around query. The only thing I can say right now is that is will solve a lot of problems most of us had in the past. Think of something real nice and you will know what it will be like

On the question on the forms which are not suitable for transforation to pages my suggestion is to look at the page extensibity model we introduced in R2. Usign web services will give you a lot of freedom to render things as you like - but takes up a lot of work and does not support modal dialogs.

Ps! Based on Marks input we are looking at moving the page buttom back to the home of the old forms button

Marije_Brummel

"Michael wrote:

"]...

Ps! Based on Marks input we are looking at moving the page buttom back to the home of the old forms button

Thanks for considering. \:D/

Administrator

BlackTiger wrote:

Just a quick question.
Is sub-page "current record" bug fixed? Or main form still calls subpage's function/action referencing it's first record instead of current?

Don't abuse this topic to post all your bug-or-not-bug related questions you are facing! Please create another topic for these issues.

sameerar

Interesting . Thanks for sharing.. =D>

Dave_Cintron

If there is no Form object and no Classic Client any longer in Nav 7, why is the Object Designer displayed in a Classic Client Form? :-k

Michael_Nielsen_[MSFT]

The Development environment runs on hardcoded forms written in C++ and not on Form objects. And they are executing C++ code and not C/AL code:)

Michael

Saalek

Hi

I've a lot of question about V7, but I only write 1.
Nav 7 has a Debugger for RTC ?

Thanks

Michael_Nielsen_[MSFT]

Yes - The debugger has already been publicly announced.

It runs in the RTC and can debug any process running in the NST including websevices

Michael

rocatis

"Michael wrote:

"]Classic forms, reports and dataports has been around since 1995 and a lot of people (including me) has had a hard time understand that they will be gone in V7. In V7 they are replaced by more mordern concepts

I've ranted about this in another thread but you should never pass an opportunity to rant, so here goes:

Too bad the so-called "modern concepts" make the lifes of developers even more despondent. I'm referring specifically to the abolition of forms. I think we can all agree that the Development Environment in NAV is pretty horrific. Solution Centers and developers have put a lot of work into creating tools and utilities to try and remedy this fact and make development bearable (just).

All of these tools are dependant on forms. All of them. So by getting rid of forms but still keeping the old development environment you are effectively crippling every single developer in the whole wide world to the point where having no arms or legs and working with the old environment is actually more efficient than retaining all you limbs and working with the new environment.

It's my impression that Microsoft wants Solution Centers to deliver better solutions cheaper. While I appreciate the fact that the product needs to grow, the introduction of that horrid "solution" for making reports on RTC and now the killing of forms are preying on developer resources to such a degree that the price for a given solution has sky rocketed. Is this what Microsoft wants?

If you are not delivering a new development environment, at least don't f*** up the existing one. You are alienating old timers like myself and effectively scaring any sane developer (who's been using any other development environment) away from ever working with NAV. Again I need to ask: is this what Microsoft wants?

I'm not advocating the use of forms for end users. Not at all. But I find it extremely taxing that you haven't retained the form functionality when using the development environment with a developer license. The functionality is there. The editor is there. Everything is there! You just decided to right-click on the Forms button and select "Delete".

I really can't think of any reason at all why you would want to do this. It's sheer stupidity, it hampers development, it makes solutions more expensive to develop. All because of some weird and frankly unworldly decision probably made by someone who's never even worked with NAV.

Please enlighten me to the sanity of this decision!

Michael_Nielsen_[MSFT]

The main reason for removing classic forms support in C/SIDE (and not just the forms) is that the classic runtime including forms does not support unicode. Given the amount of work we estimated it would take enable to enable it we it we decided that it would not be worth doing since we would have needed to drop other important V7 features instead.

When we build NAV 1.0 back in 1994 it was me who decided not to do unicode and stay with OEM like - so I am the right person to blame for not being able to support unicode and classic forms in V7

Michael