What happen to 'find as you type' in Navision 2009 RTC

couberpu · 2011-10-20

Good Day,

I am a Navision 3.6 user and my company is in the process of getting NAV 2009 classic 2009 update.
I downloaded NAV 2009 R2 demo to see the difference between 2009 R2 and 2009 classic.
What happen to 'find as you type' in NAV 2009?
We had a in-house navision customer service portal program heavy depends on 'find as you type' capability in NAV 3.6.
Can anyone help my understand why take it away?

Thanks,
Couberpu

DenSter · 2011-10-20

Nope it's still there, at least in MY 2009 R2 it is.

couberpu · 2011-10-20

DenSter wrote:

Nope it's still there, at least in MY 2009 R2 it is.

Daniel,

Need help here.
Can you point me a direction on how to do it in 2009 R2, not in 2009 classic?
By the way, how's everything with u?

Couber

DenSter · 2011-10-20

Doing great Couber, how about yourself? Good to hear you're finally upgrading

In the 2009 R2 NAV client, find as you type works the same as it always has.

If you're talking about the RTC, that just works differently. Who knows why they decided to make the decisions that they made as far as what works how. It's a matter of learning how it works and getting used to it. Once you get used to it though, it works really well.

You'll have to specify exactly what it is that you're trying to accomplish.

Alex_Chow · 2011-10-20

There is no find as you type in the RTC.

The way RTC approaches data is different than the way classic client approaches data.

couberpu · 2011-10-21

DenSter wrote:

Doing great Couber, how about yourself? Good to hear you're finally upgrading

In the 2009 R2 NAV client, find as you type works the same as it always has.

If you're talking about the RTC, that just works differently. Who knows why they decided to make the decisions that they made as far as what works how. It's a matter of learning how it works and getting used to it. Once you get used to it though, it works really well.

You'll have to specify exactly what it is that you're trying to accomplish.

I am doing just fine.
No more 'find as you type' in RTC!? ](*,) ](*,)
Ouch!

Believe or not. 'Find as you type' is one of the reason our company still want to do the upgrade.
We actually brought Oracle EBS and it made to CRP1. The project was put on hold due to how the way Oracle does its basic search.
Is there a good enough reason for dumpping it?

CouberPu

couberpu · 2011-10-21

Alex Chow wrote:

There is no find as you type in the RTC.

The way RTC approaches data is different than the way classic client approaches data.

Alex,

Please point me a direction on finding out how RTC approaches data and if possible the main reason of why it was designed such way.

Thanks,
CouberPu

DenSter · 2011-10-21

Alex Chow wrote:

There is no find as you type in the RTC.

I don't agree with that at all.

Say you are entering a sales order, and you get to the Sell-to Customer Number. You can drop down the list and start typing, this will filter down the list as you type. It behaves a little differently, but you are still finding as you are typing. You can even drop down the list, arrow down and to the right into the name column and again start typing, and as you are typing, the list will filter on the name. Maybe not exactly the same way as the classic client, but it still is a very good way to whittle down the list as you are entering values.

It simply works a little differently, and you have to get used to it. There might be a very good way to meet a requirement, that might not be the same as what you are used to, but that would be a very good alternative.

couberpu · 2011-10-21

DenSter wrote:

Alex Chow wrote:

There is no find as you type in the RTC.

I don't agree with that at all.

Say you are entering a sales order, and you get to the Sell-to Customer Number. You can drop down the list and start typing, this will filter down the list as you type. It behaves a little differently, but you are still finding as you are typing. You can even drop down the list, arrow down and to the right into the name column and again start typing, and as you are typing, the list will filter on the name. Maybe not exactly the same way as the classic client, but it still is a very good way to whittle down the list as you are entering values.

It simply works a little differently, and you have to get used to it. There might be a very good way to meet a requirement, that might not be the same as what you are used to, but that would be a very good alternative.

Agree!
I have to spend more time to play with it.
I do have a question on getting items:
1. Item F40 series and F50 series are not the same but inter-changable
2. As find as you type, I can jump back and forth, or even have them list on the same form on top of each other.
3. How can I make the same with RTC?

Thanks,
CouberPu

DenSter · 2011-10-21

Drop down the Item list and type 'F40', then backspace twice and type '50', it will apply those filters as you are typing.

Maybe it is time that you find a good NAV partner that can come in and show you eh

Belias · 2011-10-21

the lack of find as you type (filter as you type in RTC) is when you want to find a value in a list in the RTC: this is very odd.
You can't just start typing in an uneditable cell to find what you're loookin for: you have to choose what field to filter, apply the filter etc., or click on a cell, hit alt+f3, hit ctrl+f, type, hit enter. (just try to do it in the customer list for the "name" field, for example...it's hard for me to explain UX issues :whistle:

another lacking of the filter as you type is when you don't have the dropdownlist for a field (for example, you have a custom lookup list). In this case, the filterasyoutype feature is not present, because there's no dropdownlist to filter...

BTW, i think there are technical reasons behind the fact that it doesn't work the same way as it was in classic client :-k

couberpu · 2011-10-21

Belias wrote:

the lack of find as you type (filter as you type in RTC) is when you want to find a value in a list in the RTC: this is very odd.
You can't just start typing in an uneditable cell to find what you're loookin for: you have to choose what field to filter, apply the filter etc., or click on a cell, hit alt+f3, hit ctrl+f, type, hit enter. (just try to do it in the customer list for the "name" field, for example...it's hard for me to explain UX issues :whistle:

another lacking of the filter as you type is when you don't have the dropdownlist for a field (for example, you have a custom lookup list). In this case, the filterasyoutype feature is not present, because there's no dropdownlist to filter...

BTW, i think there are technical reasons behind the fact that it doesn't work the same way as it was in classic client :-k

One of our key customer service portal was based on find as you type. ](*,)
I guess there is no point to ask why RTC did what RTC did. The real question is 'Can we still keep the classic style forms we created for our business?' Or go figure! :oops: ](*,) [-o<

Belias · 2011-10-21

Classic client and RTC can live together: they have their pros and their cons, you just have to choose what's the best choice for your business, keeping in mind that RTC will be improved in the next versions, whereas classic client will die...
If the good old "find as you type" is THE key feature for you business...what can i say...stick onto classic client and wait for an improved version of RTC in the future!

David_Singleton · 2011-10-21

DenSter wrote:

Drop down the Item list and type 'F40', then backspace twice and type '50', it will apply those filters as you are typing.

Maybe it is time that you find a good NAV partner that can come in and show you eh

Here is a "customer" that does not really want to throw away Oracle and move to Nav RTC. And now the biggest single complaint they have in Oracle, they suddenly find is exactly the same in the new version of Navision, its nothing like what they loved from Navision 3.6.

People don't switch to a system that "is as good as what we have" they need something better.

Alex_Chow · 2011-10-21

DenSter wrote:

Alex Chow wrote:

There is no find as you type in the RTC.

I don't agree with that at all.

Say you are entering a sales order, and you get to the Sell-to Customer Number. You can drop down the list and start typing, this will filter down the list as you type. It behaves a little differently, but you are still finding as you are typing. You can even drop down the list, arrow down and to the right into the name column and again start typing, and as you are typing, the list will filter on the name. Maybe not exactly the same way as the classic client, but it still is a very good way to whittle down the list as you are entering values.

It simply works a little differently, and you have to get used to it. There might be a very good way to meet a requirement, that might not be the same as what you are used to, but that would be a very good alternative.

That's not find as you type. That feature will only allow you to search on the beginning of the field. So if you're trying to find all occurances of 'Cannon Group' vs. 'The Cannon Group', you're out of luck.

In the standard RTC list, the way to replicate the 'find as you type' is to use filters and wierd symbols (i.e. @ to search without case sensitivity).

There are some threads on this forum regarding this as well.

Alex_Chow · 2011-10-21

couberpu wrote:

Alex Chow wrote:

There is no find as you type in the RTC.

The way RTC approaches data is different than the way classic client approaches data.

Alex,

Please point me a direction on finding out how RTC approaches data and if possible the main reason of why it was designed such way.

Thanks,
CouberPu

The way RTC approach data for the end users is that the data comes to you. So whatever you need to pay attention for should come screaming at you. Instead of the user using 'find as you type' to find the data.

That's the main selling point of RTC vs. classic client.

So thinking along those lines, the question posed to developer is, how should I organize the RTC so relevant data comes screaming to the end user depending on what their role is.

couberpu · 2011-10-21

We could go back and forth on this forever and having a lots of fun with it.
Still, I did not get the main reason to not support find as you type function and I do not think that MS would stop by some technical limitation by the limitation of its developer. [-o< [-o<

David_Singleton · 2011-10-21

couberpu wrote:

We could go back and forth on this forever and having a lots of fun with it.
Still, I did not get the main reason to not support find as you type function and I do not think that MS would stop by some technical limitation by the limitation of its developer. [-o< [-o<

I don't think a clear answer was ever given by Microsoft as to why Find as you type was removed. I know that I personally didn't like if becasue of the performance hit it creates, but I don't think that was why it was removed.

My gut feeling is that it was not a Navision related decision, but more a decision by the UI group that want to have one common client for NAV, GP and AX, and I guess if GP and AX couldn't support ind As You Type that had to remove it.

couberpu · 2011-10-21

Why just leave it alone!
We are only a tiny little fish in the pond, but we need find as you type to grow, Not sure if there are tiny fishes as us need the same function.
Well, it would not change the fact our company needs to grow with a better programming environment.

Thanks

DenSter · 2011-10-23

The thing that was called "find as you type" is no longer available, not exactly the way that it used to work. In its place though, there are other, different ways to navigate through the system. Rather than fixating on why, or complain about the fact that it's not there anymore, I tried to point out an alternative. By becoming aware of those alternatives, you might discover a different way to meet your requirements. Because some of that still involves 'finding' (sort of) as you are typing, I just wanted to point out that it's not exactly completely gone.

Alex makes a great point about the way data comes to the user in the RTC. Once you become aware how it works, you can be very efficient at finding data. BUT, the users have to be open to the fact that it works differently, and be willing to learn the way it works in the RTC.

If it's "find as you type, the same exact way it works in the Classic Client" or nothing, then your answer is clear. I suspect that it's not that easy though, so in my opinion the best way forward is to define the actual functional requirements, and have someone that is strong in the RTC give you some suggestions for a different way to meet those requirements.

Belias · 2011-10-24

[salesperson hat on]
For example: users can now save the views of a page and create new menu items with their saved views; they can also use "My [Customers, Items, Vendors,....] List" in order to have a sort of "Favourites" list.
Users can also use notes with links and warn a colleague about a particular order...As the others said, investigate on what you (or your customer) uses the "fayt" for, and try to propose/adopt a new way to "slice and dice" data.
that said, it was a very comfortable feature for users (and developers, too

)

rhpnt · 2011-10-24

couberpu wrote:

Believe or not. 'Find as you type' is one of the reason our company still want to do the upgrade.
We actually brought Oracle EBS and it made to CRP1. The project was put on hold due to how the way Oracle does its basic search.
Is there a good enough reason for dumpping it?

So far I've heard a lot of stupid reasons from customers for not "being able" to update to new versions or switch ERP's but this one...

@couberpu
Maybe you should think about the technical side of dumping such search functionality (ERP independent) - every time the user presses a button to add a character to the search string the client sends a search query to the server, the server makes a table seek/scan and sends the filtered data back to the client. Now multiply those strokes with the number of queries entered and number of users using it. Multiply that by the approximate number of returned rows by query and you get an estimate on the I/O traffic on the server and network traffic only by this function. Things get even worse when the search is made on a field which is not included in a proper index, using wildcard characters and/or the table has lots of records. Good enough?

Alex_Chow · 2011-10-24

The information I got on the reason why find as you type was removed was purely for performance reason.

couberpu · 2011-10-24

Alex Chow wrote:

The information I got on the reason why find as you type was removed was purely for performance reason.

Thanks for the information. =D> =D>
One thing I learned over the year is to be careful of making comment on things I did not understand. Guess I am not there yet. :oops: :oops:

Anyway, CEO and COO of our company want to run a 90 days NAV vs. Oracle EBS analysis to figure out if one of these two is a good fit for our business model. I would like some advise on what NAV RTC can do that Oracle could not. ](*,) ](*,)

Thanks again.

Alex_Chow · 2011-10-24

couberpu wrote:

Alex Chow wrote:

The information I got on the reason why find as you type was removed was purely for performance reason.

Thanks for the information. =D> =D>
One thing I learned over the year is to be careful of making comment on things I did not understand. Guess I am not there yet. :oops: :oops:

Anyway, CEO and COO of our company want to run a 90 days NAV vs. Oracle EBS analysis to figure out if one of these two is a good fit for our business model. I would like some advise on what NAV RTC can do that Oracle could not. ](*,) ](*,)

Thanks again.

You need to contact your NAV partner for them to make a case on why NAV is better than Oracle.

If they can't convince you or the senior management, I'd get a new NAV partner or go with Oracle. If your NAV partner can't be excited about RTC and can't prove to you that it's best thing since sliced bread, then your project is likely to fail anyway. However, that's not to say your project have less chance to fail with Oracle.

In all honesty, the more I use RTC, the less I felt I need the find as you type feature. I believe serious thought has been put into how RTC was designed. I'm sure if RTC was released just as a fancy display, MSFT would've left the Find as You Type function in there, regardless of the performance.

rhpnt · 2011-10-25

couberpu wrote:

...but we need find as you type to grow... Well, it would not change the fact our company needs to grow with a better programming environment.

couberpu wrote:

Anyway, CEO and COO of our company want to run a 90 days NAV vs. Oracle EBS analysis

Don't take this the wrong way but maybe the company isn't growing because it's spending too much time on things that aren't worth the penny!?

Sog · 2011-10-25

rhpnt wrote:

Don't take this the wrong way but maybe the company isn't growing because it's spending too much time on things that aren't worth the penny!?

I can't agree more. Who in their right mind would want to spend a penny on Oracle when they've worked with NAV and the new RTC?

and that is how you sell it.

Alex_Chow · 2011-10-25

rhpnt wrote:

couberpu wrote:

...but we need find as you type to grow... Well, it would not change the fact our company needs to grow with a better programming environment.

couberpu wrote:

Anyway, CEO and COO of our company want to run a 90 days NAV vs. Oracle EBS analysis

Don't take this the wrong way but maybe the company isn't growing because it's spending too much time on things that aren't worth the penny!?

=D>

couberpu · 2011-10-28

Sorry to get off the track a little bit. :whistle:
I am not trying to challenge anyone here just want to ask a question and express my love to 'find as you type'. :oops: :oops:
I do want to share that we are having average 10+% growth every year since we got NAV 3.6 and we did not need to add too many people to handle the increase of sales. We are still growing today and .. ](*,) ](*,)
Well, that is not important for this discussion but just want to express what NAV 3.60 did for us.

The question was for the reason why RTC does not support 'find as you type' anymore.
For what I gathered was for performance sake.
So the question is how big the database would show preformance drop and are there any other reasons?
Please advise.

David_Singleton · 2011-10-28

couberpu wrote:

...but we need find as you type to grow...

Couber, I think you created confusion when you wrote this. I think what you meant to say was

...but we need find as you type to continue to grow at our current rate...

David_Singleton · 2011-10-28

Also I should add that I don't agree that you need find as you type, (technically) I am convinced that the process should be redesigned in a way that will increase the users' productivity. And that is valid whether you stay with 3.6 or continue with Oracle, or move to 2009.

Unfortunately I also understand that political issues that make that impossible.

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What happen to 'find as you type' in Navision 2009 RTC

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