Update Build Version of NAV

johanna

Dear all,

I want to update build version of NAV 4 SP3 from 23305 to 24080. Is it okay since there are lot of modification already in my Navision ?
Please advise. Thank you.

Andwian

I think that will be okay since the Build No. update just touch the platform (program files, *.dll etc.), instead of the object.

johanna

Thank you for your opinion, Andwian

johanna

I have updated build version of NAV 4 SP3 from 23305 to 24080. Since using build version 24080, the performance is slower. Is it true that upgrade to 24080 makes performance becomes slower?

FDickschat

Is there a reason you have updated to 24080 (Update 1) instead of immediately to the latest available version of 4.03 (or even to 2009 SP1)?

You are probably running the DB on SQL. MS has changed the way NAV generates SQL queries several times during the life of 4.0SP3. I would personally suggest to either go to 4.03 Build 29821 (or higher) or move directly to 2009 SP1 (30212 or higher).

For a list of available builds look here:
http://dynamicsuser.net/blogs/waldo/archive/2010/11/18/platform-updates-overview-3-70-b-nav2009-sp1-updated-5.aspx

Performance wise you will need to take a look at Index Hinting (and how it is configured - search the forum) and to check indexes and AL code to see where the performance decrease comes from. Be aware, if you move to 2009 SP1 there might be other issues because of the VSIFT implementation depending on your solution. Search the formum, there are tons of advice regarding performance problems.

David_Singleton

johanna wrote:

I have updated build version of NAV 4 SP3 from 23305 to 24080. Since using build version 24080, the performance is slower. Is it true that upgrade to 24080 makes performance becomes slower?

Surely you discovered all this when you did your testing though. So it shouldn't affect live.

johanna

@Frank : Thank you for your reply I update to build version 24080 because this version solve "You do not have permissions to read the [MyTable] table" when I have a filter on a table relation and I look up a table relation (as said in the KB 931841). I have seen your given link. Thank you very much If I want to go to the latest build version (30698), is it needed to apply build version from 24080 to 30698 first or does the latest build version including all fixed error in older build version so I just need to apply the latest build version? Please advise
Thanks Frank

@David : Thanks David.. Yeah, it still on testing environment

FDickschat

As far as I remember you will need to go to Update 6 as this comes with a full update installer and then just add the latest available build on top of it.

24080 still has problems with the updates of SIFT Tables (if you are on SQL) so I would definitely go to 4.03 Upd.6 at least (24610 or 25565 were good builds. Ignore all version up to 29113 as they have different performance issues. 29821 was a good version again, with later builds I have no experience)

But still, if you do an exe update (and do all the testing) why not update to 2009 SP1 or R2? SP1, 30212 works rather well (at least the Classic Client).

David_Singleton

Its important to know that since the introduction of index hinting and Dynamic Cursors, it is no longer possible to simply do an EXE upgrade. You can never be sure if a newer version will be faster or slower with your object, except by testing. I am sure this is a core reason that Microsoft no longer support mixed versions.

FDickschat

David Singleton wrote:

Its important to know that since the introduction of index hinting and Dynamic Cursors, it is no longer possible to simply do an EXE upgrade. You can never be sure if a newer version will be faster or slower with your object, except by testing. I am sure this is a core reason that Microsoft no longer support mixed versions.

I wouldn't be so harsh to say "it is not possible" but that it is no longer possible to do an exe upgrade and expect to have the same performance as before. I completely agree with the remainder of your post.
As johanna is already out of support with V4, it does not really matter which version she uses. But yes, she needs a lot of knowledge how to configure the system correct for a given build (esp. with index hinting and dynamic cursors) and a lot of testing of course to be sure the system runs as expected.

David_Singleton

Or they could just go back to Fast Forward Cursors so that Navision could be fast again. 8)

FDickschat

That is the other option we will only get if hell frezes over

David_Singleton

The only advantage I see of Dynamics Cursors is that it makes Navision more expensive, but how is that an improvement? Navision was always about low cost and simplicity.

johanna

FDickschat wrote:

As far as I remember you will need to go to Update 6 as this comes with a full update installer and then just add the latest available build on top of it.

24080 still has problems with the updates of SIFT Tables (if you are on SQL) so I would definitely go to 4.03 Upd.6 at least (24610 or 25565 were good builds. Ignore all version up to 29113 as they have different performance issues. 29821 was a good version again, with later builds I have no experience)

But still, if you do an exe update (and do all the testing) why not update to 2009 SP1 or R2? SP1, 30212 works rather well (at least the Classic Client).

Thanks Frank
So, If I add build version 29821, it is including build version 26410 and 26565, isn't it ?
I cannot update to 2009 SP1 because there are many modification already in NAV 4.0 SP3

johanna

David Singleton wrote:

Its important to know that since the introduction of index hinting and Dynamic Cursors, it is no longer possible to simply do an EXE upgrade. You can never be sure if a newer version will be faster or slower with your object, except by testing. I am sure this is a core reason that Microsoft no longer support mixed versions.

Thanks David
When the introduction of Index Hinting and Dynamic Cursors is introduced ? In what build version it is introduced ?

johanna

FDickschat wrote:

David Singleton wrote:

Its important to know that since the introduction of index hinting and Dynamic Cursors, it is no longer possible to simply do an EXE upgrade. You can never be sure if a newer version will be faster or slower with your object, except by testing. I am sure this is a core reason that Microsoft no longer support mixed versions.

I wouldn't be so harsh to say "it is not possible" but that it is no longer possible to do an exe upgrade and expect to have the same performance as before. I completely agree with the remainder of your post.
As johanna is already out of support with V4, it does not really matter which version she uses. But yes, she needs a lot of knowledge how to configure the system correct for a given build (esp. with index hinting and dynamic cursors) and a lot of testing of course to be sure the system runs as expected.

Wow I need a lot of knowledge how to to configure the system correct for a given build (esp. with index hinting and dynamic cursors) ? The latest update 29821 build version still need correction of index hinting and dynamic cursors ?

FDickschat

4.03 Update 6 incorporates fixes for very severe bugs in 4.03 under SQL. Up until 4.03 update 1 (I don't remember the exact build) NAV still used Fast Forward Cursors for all queries to the server. This has been changed with Update 6 where the use of dynamic cursors was introduced. MS did some trial and error programming changing things forth and back until finally with 29113 a combination of fast forward and dynamic cursors was introduced (in fact as a downgrade from NAV6 to NAV4). 29113 has other problems and should not be used.

29821 is quite stable, still uses SIFT tables but has the query engine in the NDBCS.dll as NAV 6. When going to that build NAV will behave differently (read that as will generate different SQL queries) as your original NAV 4 build which might improve or reduce performance. If you find processes which take longer as before you will need to check the programming:
- Was setcurrentey used or not? You should always use it.
- Does the setcurrentkey contain all fields form the index or only the first 1 or 2 fields? Change the setcurrentkey so that it contains all fields of the index.
- Is the setcurrentkey matching the filters?

You can find lots of posts on Mibuso which relate to performance tuning.

johanna

Thanks Frank
So, I just need to add update 6 (build version 25143) and build version 29821 only ?
Does the build version 29821 including earlier build version ?
I cannot update to 2009 SP1 because there are many modification already in NAV 4.0 SP3

FDickschat

johanna wrote:

So, I just need to add update 6 (build version 25143) and build version 29821 only ?

Correct. Update 6 comes as an installer package. 29821 just contains files, no installer. Take a look here for a list of the files a hotfix replaces (it is in German but you will understand): http://blogs.msdn.com/b/german_nav_developer/archive/2008/06/23/buildnummern-bersicht-microsoft-dynamics-4-0-service-pack-3.aspx
When you upgrade also think about NAS and other system which might access the database via C/Front.

johanna wrote:

Does the build version 29821 including earlier build version ?

Yes

johanna wrote:

I cannot update to 2009 SP1 because there are many modification already in NAV 4.0 SP3

Why not? Is this only C/AL modifications you are talking about? This shouldn't be a problem. Last year I upgraded a heavily customized client from 4.03 to 2009 SP1. We did a lot of testing regarding performance and automation controls but in the end there were only minor problems.

johanna

Thank you very much Frank
I just add update 6 in my NAV 4.0 SP3 and there is warning :

The XXXXX database on the YYYYY server must be converted before you can use it with this version of Microsoft Business Solutions-Navision.

If you convert the database, older versions will no longer be able to open it.

We recommended that you:
* Make a database or transaction log backup in SQL Server before the conversion.
* Are the only user working with this database during the conversion

Click OK if you would like to convert the database or click Cancel to abort the current activity.

[OK] [Cancel]

Do you get this warning when update to update 6 (build version 25143)? Is this conversion make change my data? Is it okay to do this conversion? Thank you

FDickschat

The DB Version is updated and the client will actually regenerate all SIFT tables during the update as there was a major bug in earlier versions regarding SIFT tables. This might take a while depending on the size of your DB and the speed of your server.

After the conversion you can still open the DB with older clients but because of the bugs this should not be done. As long as you are not deleting 0 SIFT records and are not using the Optimize Function from the database Information (Tables) window older versions should be fine though.

Just convert a test DB and see what happens.

johanna

Thanks Frank

The size of my customer DB is very large - about 80 GB, so I'm afraid the convertion will takes so much time. I ever do Optimize Table too. So, how about update 5 (KB938138 - Build version 24734)? In the KB article, it said

- You experience slow performance in Microsoft Dynamics NAV 4.0 on a computer that is running Microsoft SQL Server 2005.
This problem occurs because Microsoft Dynamics NAV generates queries that have an OPTION FAST(x) hint. This hint may cause slow performance. After you install this platform update, Microsoft Dynamics NAV will no longer use the OPTION FAST(x) hint in SQL Server queries.

I think this update can improve NAV's performance. How do you think? Thank you.

johanna

Uhmmm, the update 5 need conversion too..

FDickschat

johanna wrote:

Uhmmm, the update 5 need conversion too..

Correct. MS did a lot of trial and error programming with these updates. Some of these updates really do something during conversion some updates just bring a new version no.

johanna wrote:

The size of my customer DB is very large - about 80 GB, so I'm afraid the convertion will takes so much time

Why don't you just create a test DB and convert it? :? Then you know how long it takes.

johanna

Okay, thank you very much Frank

johanna

Hi Frank,

Do you know the latest build no and its kb article for nav 4 sp3?
Hehhee, about converting database, I found new way to apply platform hotfix without convert the database :
1. Backup database
2. Update the platform hotfix to NAV
3. Create new database
4. Restore the database backup

Thank you

FDickschat

Take a look here:
http://dynamicsuser.net/blogs/waldo/archive/2011/08/05/platform-updates-overview-3-70-b-nav2009-r2-updated-3.aspx
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/german_nav_developer/archive/2008/06/23/buildnummern-bersicht-microsoft-dynamics-4-0-service-pack-3.aspx

The last one is in german but you will get it. The lists are inconsistent at the end. You will have to find out yourself.

johanna

Hi Frank,

Thanks for your links. I got result that the latest build no is Build 30698 and its KB article is KB 978786. With this latest build no, I got all earlier build no is included in this hotfix. Correct me if I am wrong.. Thanks

johanna

Frank, if I need the hotfix of KB 959822 - Build No 27765, is it okay to apply the update 6 (build version 25143) and this build 27765 only? whether it's better to apply the latest build no or not? please advice.. thank you..