Change NAV Partner

ninos

generic wrote:

You can copy existing MS objects in 50K as is. MS allows that.

MS released a document so that you can copy localization from other companies to merge into one. You can find it on partnersource.

Also addons are not existing Nav functionality.
Based on the above post You could copy an object, Modify it to your needs and it would be still ok. hmmm

Hm,

are you sure on this. Since we have Designer granules, does it mean that we are allowed to copy objects from this add-on to 50k range? Is this legal? If it is, then we have a solution

generic

Addon are not existing MS objects (localizations).
I was specifically talking about MS localization that can be copied to 50 K range.
You still need the granule for it but they can be renumbered to 50 K range.


With Addons if you have only execute permission, you cannot even copy them or design them.
Go to Microsoft and Pressure them to get the objects opened for modification or threatened them get your money back and purchase some other ERP system.

Could you tell me where this addon is from or country?

DenSter

ninos wrote:

generic wrote:

You can copy existing MS objects in 50K as is. MS allows that.

MS released a document so that you can copy localization from other companies to merge into one. You can find it on partnersource.

Also addons are not existing Nav functionality.
Based on the above post You could copy an object, Modify it to your needs and it would be still ok. hmmm

Hm,

are you sure on this. Since we have Designer granules, does it mean that we are allowed to copy objects from this add-on to 50k range? Is this legal? If it is, then we have a solution

It is definately NOT true that you can copy any NAV object into 50000 range, you will always need to purchase the granule before you can use the objects. What some people are confusing is that MSFT allows you to renumber localizations into the 50000 range, but ONLY when you FIRST purchase the proper licenses for that particular localization. That way you pay for the localization itself, plus for the custom objects. You kind of pay twice for the objects, but it is a way to "allow" multiple localizations in one database.

You can't just copy stuff without a license, that is always considered stealing.

gerdhuebner

ninos wrote:

Since we have Designer granules, does it mean that we are allowed to copy objects from this add-on to 50k range? Is this legal? If it is, then we have a solution

Sorry, but I can't see any real solution with this. If I interpret your view of the "solution" right, you would (provided this would be possible and legal, of course) copy all Addon objects to the 50k range. But this would be only half the way. Each reference to the original objects has to be renumbered, too, of course. Provided you would succeed with that, how could your customer use his Addon solution any more? He had to purchase the new 50k objects, first! (the tables would make the main contribution in many cases). Additionally he would have to pay your effort to renumber the Addon. If there is an update for the Addon, the same procedure starts again. This, I would not call a "real" solution.

ninos

DenSter wrote:

ninos wrote:

generic wrote:

You can copy existing MS objects in 50K as is. MS allows that.

MS released a document so that you can copy localization from other companies to merge into one. You can find it on partnersource.

Also addons are not existing Nav functionality.
Based on the above post You could copy an object, Modify it to your needs and it would be still ok. hmmm

Hm,

are you sure on this. Since we have Designer granules, does it mean that we are allowed to copy objects from this add-on to 50k range? Is this legal? If it is, then we have a solution

It is definately NOT true that you can copy any NAV object into 50000 range, you will always need to purchase the granule before you can use the objects. What some people are confusing is that MSFT allows you to renumber localizations into the 50000 range, but ONLY when you FIRST purchase the proper licenses for that particular localization. That way you pay for the localization itself, plus for the custom objects. You kind of pay twice for the objects, but it is a way to "allow" multiple localizations in one database.

You can't just copy stuff without a license, that is always considered stealing.

I would like to say that we purchased this add-on granule. We just want other partner to maintain it. If they can't get permission to modify objects on original range, is it legal that we copy them to 50k range, and the modify them there?

DenSter

ninos wrote:

I would like to say that we purchased this add-on granule. We just want other partner to maintain it. If they can't get permission to modify objects on original range, is it legal that we copy them to 50k range, and the modify them there?

Legal? I dunno. Moral? Definately! I don't know 100% if it's legal, but MSFT needs to hear the complaints if this is ever going to change. There are a few big vertical partners out there that deliberately abuse the system this way, and it holds customers hostage. What I'd do is have your new partner talk to MSFT and make some noise about it, see what happens.

gerdhuebner

ninos wrote:

... is it legal that we copy them to 50k range, and the modify them there?

This should be clearly decidable from your license agreement terms, which you should have received from your Addon-Solution-Seller. Typical license agreements contain clauses like "... you are not allowed to change the source code in any way..." or ".. the source code is delivered to you and may be changed freely..." or ".. you are allowed to make one copy of the software ..." (but sometimes it is not clear if you are allowed to make that copy into the 50k range ...)

David_Singleton

There is no need to renumber anything. To renumber you need access to the objects, if you have access then you just leave them where they are and modify them in the current range.

KTA8

David Singleton wrote:

KTA8 wrote:

I've heard that some partners have done add-ons that are closed by code. They try to trap the client with that. Normally the old partner partner and the new one have previous agreements about that point.
But I've never seen a contract between partner and customer than says that they have to accept a close code.

Sorry but I haven't got a clue what you are trying to say. Can you please clarify? You seem to imply that I said that exact opposite in my comment of what I actually said.

I'm trying to say that the partner who has the add-on tries to kidnap the client saying that they are the only company who are be able to touch that code. But they normally, I don't know in this case, don't have a point in the contract that says they have exclusive property of a part of the code. Because if the client reads that they will not continue with the project.

David_Singleton

KTA8 wrote:

I'm trying to say that the partner who has the add-on tries to kidnap the client saying that they are the only company who are be able to touch that code. But they normally, I don't know in this case, don't have a point in the contract that says they have exclusive property of a part of the code. Because if the client reads that they will not continue with the project.

Yes that's celar now, and I think you are right. I have never seen something like that either in a contract, and I would hope that a potential customer is smart enough not to sign something like that.

Although as I said above, a simple solution is the opposite, in that the customer puts an agreement in the contract that the partner provides open code that they have permission to modify as they wish, and that the partner agrees to provide the objects in both fob and txt format to prove that they have open code and access to it. Of course I would expect the partner to add a clause saying that if the customer or any third party modifies the code, then they no longer support it, but the option must be there.

rosenbergl

Any objects in the 37,000,000 range is protected and can only be changed by the partner who owns the object. Hopefully, you can leave your current partner on good terms and they may be willing to help with future changes/upgrades conerning their objects. You should definately speak to your Microsoft rep about this. Unfortunately, we users are never told about this "protected" range of objects until it is too late.

DenSter

rosenbergl wrote:

Any objects in the 37,000,000 range is protected and can only be changed by the partner who owns the object.

The partner that creates these objects can release execute rights to the partner channel, so that other partners can modify the code. When you release those execute rights, MSFT creates a separate granule for those objects that partners can have added to their development license. This way the new partner can modify the objects however they need, they are just not able to create objects in that number range.

Most ISV partners understand this principle and will allow the partner channel those rights. Unfortunately, some non-ISV partners also create add-ons, and some of them knowingly refuse to release this, and that is when the customer gets the short end of the stick.

vgvozdev

Hi,
Microsoft has addressed this issue in the contract with partner. But some partners hide this from their Clients.

Essentially partner has to notify Customer that they will not have right to support their solution in case they decide to switch partner or give them this rights. If they have not done this – they are in breach of Microsoft agreement and you can ask your money back or rights to support your solution.

damir

vgvozdev wrote:

Hi,
Microsoft has addressed this issue in the contract with partner. But some partners hide this from their Clients.

Essentially partner has to notify Customer that they will not have right to support their solution in case they decide to switch partner or give them this rights. If they have not done this – they are in breach of Microsoft agreement and you can ask your money back or rights to support your solution.

Hi,

can you point to the section of document where such clause exists? I have been searching our SPA agreement and could not find it.
We are fighting unfair partners for some time, and if it is really as you say then it will be really helpful.

rdebath

David Singleton wrote:

To renumber you need access to the objects.

Ahhh, no.

That's really the problem here, physically it's quite simple to bypass the Nav 'addons' permission scheme, a Navision dev license lets you easily add, change or delete any object or any column in any table. (if you don't have a Dev license you have to bypass the entire license scheme which is more difficult but it appears that it has been done.) Editing things you're not 'supposed to' change is more annoying but not really more difficult, that's because it's basically a form of DRM where you have access to something but you can only use it in the way they want you to.

As with any DRM scheme it doesn't really work well 'cause as the saying goes "you can't have your cake and eat it". I'm pretty sure Microsoft (for the most part) actually gets this (they're after cash not direct control) so their licensing and contracts reflect this, like the Navision AS ones did, some addon makers aren't quite so smart.

The source code deletion tools are a little different, after all it's quite difficult to convert hamburgers back into pigs.

matttrax

damir wrote:

can you point to the section of document where such clause exists? I have been searching our SPA agreement and could not find it.

You probably won't find anyone to go through their contract for you, but you can see the SPA and NAV Addendum on partner.microsoft.com. All of the forms are available for download and partners have to sign new ones when new versions of the documents come out. You should be able to find a section on the site about becoming a NAV partner. That's where they will be.

Sunset

rdebath wrote:

That's really the problem here, physically it's quite simple to bypass the Nav 'addons' permission scheme, a Navision dev license lets you easily add, change or delete any object or any column in any table.

Then the licensing scheme has changed lately. It is over a year since I was involved in the licensing "package" system, but at that time the following held true.
When you certify/licens your add-on at Microsoft you got a number range outside regular range. Then you as a partner decided how open/closed your add-on would be. You could manage it down to the single codeunits/forms. So you could for instance let most of your code be open to everyone with a developer license, have some that you only let certain partners modify, and some (for instance the very heart of the code) that only your developing license could touch.

An example could be a car dealership system. Here you could let all of the forms, reports etc be open to all. The setup tables, and calculation routines you would only open up to partners you trust (Who have had some training from you and possibly a contract) Then the posting routine you would keep to yourself; making sure that noone could come in, copy your code and pass it on as their own.
Basically the same as MS does on a different scale with NAV. As soon as a client has purchased his license he is free to use the application, and modify forms etc. The more critical codeunits like G/L posting you are not allowed to touch unless you have been certified by MS and have signed their contract. But the NAV.exe you are not allowed to touch in any circumstances.

rdebath

Sunset wrote:

rdebath wrote:

That's really the problem here, physically it's quite simple to bypass the Nav 'addons' permission scheme, a Navision dev license lets you easily add, change or delete any object or any column in any table.

Then the licensing scheme has changed lately.

The scheme hasn't changed, it's just that most of it is rather easy to bypass if you have a normal dev license. Since 5sp1 the only remaining issue is editing objects with indirect permissions.

And by easy I mean seconds from a standing start.