Navision support more than 300 Concurrent User

budis78

Hello NAVers,

Have anyone have experience on implement NAV more than 300 Concurrent User ? if yes, i want to know about hardware sizing ? and any further detail about customizing and tuning on NAV ?

for information, i'm plan on using SQL Server 2005 Standard Edition x64 and Windows Server 2003 Standard Edition x64 or IA64 (if needed, we suggest it).

How can i find a such information like that ?

thanks before..

nrapendra

i don't have exact idea about 300 users,but i have run it on 180 concurrent users.
problem u will face will not be software part,but it wil be from hardware part.
you have to setup big server with high ram capacity.
if both are ok then there will not be any problem.

Sog

You should contact sqlperform, they have plenty of experience with NAV for many users.
And I have to disagree with nrapendra . Even with the best hardware, there still will be problems.

kine

All depends on what the users are doing, if all users are posting, it is bad, if all users are only running reports and only one is posting... no critical problem... But all is too complex to give you simple answer to your simple question...

garak

all users can post ;-)
the question is: what they post. Use they dimensions, how many lines per documents, etc ....
Other question is also: How looks the Hardware, what for a Server engine (native or sql). 32 or 64 bit, NAV Tuning, etc ....

budis78

For All,

tx for the replies.. :?

here is the details Plan so far..

The Company want to make online their location (maybe about 58 location estimated,). So already Count that NAV User around 180 - 200 Users

Hardware Sizing (Plan & Estimated as described on White Paper about Hardware Guide For NAV 4.0):
hp Proliant DL785 G5 (4xOpteron 8358SE, 64 GB RAM, 4x72 GB 15k SAS HDD)
hp EVA 4400 SAN Starter Kit 146 GB 15k Factory Integrated (8x146GB 15k FC HDD)
to split SQL tempdb (tempdb & templog) , NAV DB itself( mdf & ndf ), SQL Log & Alternative Backup for SQL
with Windows Server 2003 Standard Edition x64 & SQL Server 2005 Standard Edition x64

Internal Storage Usage (RAID 1) with 2 Logical Drive (4x72GB) for OS & Alternative SQL Backup
External Storage Usage (RAID 1+0) with 2 Logical Drive (8X146GB) for NAV DB, tempdb & SQL Log

another info that NAV table can be move separately to increase performance (Big & recently accessed Table like Item Ledger, Cust. Ledger & Ledger Entry). It said can be Split to another Location / Physical Drive. How to make it happen ?

I'm just want to make this implementation going smoothly and run well.

Need Advice from the Expert in this Forum..

p.willemse6

This is a clear technical answer, where the issue is more in other surfaces... I can predict this will be a though one...

p.s. we have sites with 700 up to 1.000 concurrent users on NAV, indeed you should approach SQL perform. If you will try to do this on your own, supported by a forum, be sure to have a legal advisor ready...

budis78

At least i have somebody who has the experience before can share information about it, or maybe get the idea / clue to moving forward.

For a while i provide the solution with Hardware Sizing, and split SQL database path.

any idea about navision table partition ?

thanks before..

Sog

I would really encourage you to approach sqlperform
UK office: +44 2077165812
Benelux office: +31 555330553
info@sqlperform.com
They are the experts at this.
They can give you advice on every aspect of Navision.
I am not telling you this because I want to advertise sqlperform, but to help you.
The chances of the succes of this project will be very low without them.

Don't manually change the filegroups, sql server has the best logarythm for that.
Use one filegroup with multiple luns on SAN instead.

Rewrite the posting mechanism so that table locking will happen at the last possible moment. (otherwise users will be locked out of the db constantly)

Make the best use out of FIND('-')/('+'),FINDFIRST/LAST/SET

Look into the options MS Sharepoint can give you in combination with NAV, (maybe you can exclude users with it (which makes NAV cheaper and more interesting for the Customer), ...

Monitor NAV in every aspect, test it, stresstest it, ... So you can find the bottlenecks

But really, you don't want to do this without an expert.

David_Singleton

budis78 wrote:

For All,

tx for the replies.. :?

here is the details Plan so far..

The Company want to make online their location (maybe about 58 location estimated,). So already Count that NAV User around 180 - 200 Users

....

another info that NAV table can be move separately to increase performance (Big & recently accessed Table like Item Ledger, Cust. Ledger & Ledger Entry). It said can be Split to another Location / Physical Drive. How to make it happen ?

I'm just want to make this implementation going smoothly and run well.

Need Advice from the Expert in this Forum..

Hi budis,

have you heard the saying "It's like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic", because this is what you are doing.

At this point forget hardware, its not important ... YET ... yes it will be, but right now you have so many other important issues to resolve, leave the hardware till you know what you are implementing, for now concentrate on the Ice Berg.

The number of Users is also completely irrelevant. Important is that this is a large system and needs to be designed and thought out, not just implemented with the idea "hey we can throw hardware at it".

You need to look at transaction volume. SQL does not care how many users there are, it cares how much data has to be read and written. So start with how much data will be posted per day. Work out peak transaction times, work out which tables are going to be hot, work out which code needs to be tuned, work out how the users will interact with the system. Then when you have the system designed and worked out, you can start benchmarking to work out your hardware needs.

budis78

For All : Tx for the suggestion,

i just need more detail / Standard / Book Reference to measure this case.

Meanwhile i'll find it with perfmon to lookup Performance and test it. if there any idea to know where i find Standard Performance on ebook or guidance to do it at different way ?

Thanks Before..

p.willemse6

aiaiai....

there is no standard benchmark for these type of cases!

David_Singleton

budis78 wrote:

For All : Tx for the suggestion,

i just need more detail / Standard / Book Reference to measure this case.

Meanwhile i'll find it with perfmon to lookup Performance and test it. if there any idea to know where i find Standard Performance on ebook or guidance to do it at different way ?

Thanks Before..

](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)

Its very clear you are not reading replies, simply hoping that someone will say "Yes here you are here is the solution and its all for free"

What point is there for us to reply to your questions if you do not read the answers. :-#

budis78

#-o i'm sorry, David. i'm already read and appriciate your reply and it's good to have, but i need more detail information...

Right now, i try to do it with it. and figure out "how to" another information that already given..

thanks for the replies..

p.willemse6

Budis, the only way to bring this to an end is to get a partner in with experience in this kind of cases. You will not make it on your own. The only customers have end up leaving NAV, are these kind of customers. If you have never done this, you need help. A 300 user license seems nice to invoice now, but you will end up spending much more on crediting and escalation management....

johanna

p.willemse6 wrote:

Budis, the only way to bring this to an end is to get a partner in with experience in this kind of cases. You will not make it on your own. The only customers have end up leaving NAV, are these kind of customers. If you have never done this, you need help. A 300 user license seems nice to invoice now, but you will end up spending much more on crediting and escalation management....

Hi p.willemse6,

Would you like to give me information about the partner with experience in this kind of cases?

Thank you

David_Singleton

johanna wrote:

Hi p.willemse6,

Would you like to give me information about the partner with experience in this kind of cases?

Thank you

Hi Johanna, are you working on the same project as Budis? I ask because its two years later, and you are both in the same country, where I guess there are not too many big systems like this.

johanna

David Singleton wrote:

johanna wrote:

Hi p.willemse6,

Would you like to give me information about the partner with experience in this kind of cases?

Thank you

Hi Johanna, are you working on the same project as Budis? I ask because its two years later, and you are both in the same country, where I guess there are not too many big systems like this.

Hi David

No, I'm not working on the same project with Budis although we're in the same country..:D

My customer have a blocking and deadlock problem. Although have done maintenance database, like rebuild index and update statistic, the problem is still happen.

So, I guess I need a lot of index or code tuning for performance improvement and need a lot of test. But, I also guess I cannot do this things without an expert who experience in this things..

David_Singleton

johanna wrote:

Hi David

No, I'm not working on the same project with Budis although we're in the same country..:D

The reason I asked is that I do a lot of performance tuning work, so it's interesting to see two very large projects in the same region like this. :thumbsup:

David_Singleton

johanna wrote:

Hi David


So, I guess I need a lot of index or code tuning for performance improvement and need a lot of test. But, I also guess I cannot do this things without an expert who experience in this things..

As Sog suggests, I would contact Hynek at SQL Perform (info(at)sqlperform.com) http://www.sqlperform.com/html/contact_us.aspx

johanna

Wow, so quick response from you, David

You do a lot of performance tuning work.. =D>

Thank you for the link..

Are you do a performance tuning with SQL Perform too?

David_Singleton

johanna wrote:

Are you do a performance tuning with SQL Perform too?

Yes :thumbsup:

stryk

And just to add to the ads: 8)
I have customers which run NAV on SQL with 350+ concurrent users; the required optimizations where implemented by me.
As you were talking about blocking issues, maybe this could help you: http://dynamicsuser.net/blogs/stryk/archive/2008/11/03/blocks-amp-deadlocks-in-nav-with-sql-server.aspx
Feel free to contact me if you have any questions.
Cheers,
Jörg

johanna

stryk wrote:

And just to add to the ads: 8)
I have customers which run NAV on SQL with 350+ concurrent users; the required optimizations where implemented by me.
As you were talking about blocking issues, maybe this could help you: http://dynamicsuser.net/blogs/stryk/archive/2008/11/03/blocks-amp-deadlocks-in-nav-with-sql-server.aspx
Feel free to contact me if you have any questions.
Cheers,
Jörg

Hi stryk,

What a great blog! :thumbsup:
I got many information of blocking issues from there. Thank you for the information.

stryk

Hi Johanna,

thanks for your kind words - I'm glad if I could help
Just to mention it: last week I presented a similar session about "Blocks & Deadlocks" - here the link to the BLOG which contains some updated scripts: http://dynamicsuser.net/blogs/stryk/archive/2010/05/19/decisions-spring-2010-nav-sql-performance-blocks-and-deadlocks.aspx

budis78

Hi, Everyone...

First, i want to say to anyone that support me in this forum. This forum really helpful for us, that are not NAV Expert. This issue already accomplished 2 years Ago. we do it with having support from local NAV partner that supporting our company.

We do many performance tuning on NAV Code to avoid Block & Deadlocking.. and of course, hardware supporting are needed from user counted to access the NAV DB..

Storage Hardware Technology can be considered to increased performance...