Interesting UK NAV/AX Reseller Information

alpap64

Hi All,

Wanted to get any opinions as to what seems to be happening in the Navision Channel in the UK.

Working for a Solution Centre in the UK for many years, it seems Microsoft UK in the last 4-6 months have been fundamentally shifting how they are treating partners and sales leads in particular.

Has anyone noticed or have a view on some of the following that I have noted and tackled Microsoft UK about but without much luck at getting a straight answer ?

1 MBS UK seem to be plugging the AX product far more in the last 6 months. I have noted several prospects for ourselves and other contacts in resellers around the country where AX was pushed as the Solution when NAV had the pedigree and domain experience to achieve the same result ?

2 Microsoft US has a large consulting arm that primarily is used to deliver AX products often bypassing the reseller channel – are UK AX partners building a channel so that MS can move into direct consulting in Europe ?

3 Microsoft US has been seconding more and more consultants for AX projects in Europe often taking the lead away from resellers.

4 Sales Leads are being pushed towards a few of the biggest resellers even though in some cases they do not have a vertical – has one else noticed this trend ?

5 The few biggest UK resellers are being pushed by MBS UK to sell more AX at the cost of NAV, were does that leave GP ?

6 Does anyone else think there is a hidden agenda by MBS UK which is detrimental to the NAV Channel which has generated the most revenue for them and will continue to do so ?

Any comments or information would be helpful as opinions of other UK channel members.

David_Singleton

Definitely some interesting observations, but not sure how much of this is new. The UK market is some what unique NAV wise. Firstly there has always been a very disproportionate geographical distribution. i.e. the large percentage of NSCs that are in the London area. I remember there were 5 NSCs in one building at one stage. So its always been complex as to how to distribute leads.

As a smaller NSC we were affected pretty badly by this bias that NAV UK always had towards larger NSCs, though we normally picked up those customers one year later after they left their big NSC and realized that they needed service instead.

So I don't really see the NAV situation as changed much in the last 10 years or so.

Now on the AX side that's another issue.

Take a look at version 27,145,981 of the "Statement of Directions For Dynamics", and it appears that the products are all out there to fend for them selves. (Which personally I think is the right direction finally).

So in this case its just a case of who is at the wheel this week. From what we have seen at the Conferences etc, it looks like NAV 5.1 is going to kick a whole lot of AX butt really hard. Since it gives all clients all the great stuff, but retains the 'Beauty Of Simplicity". So this current AX drive we are seeing is probably going to be gone when NAV 5.1 is released.

Soooo

yes I see what you are saying, but a/ I don't think this is new, b/ just get out there and focus on NAV in the NAV market.

David.

AdamRoue

Hi

Working in the channel I will now tread very very carefully

I worked for many years at what was not classified by Microsoft as a lifestyle reseller, we were small, but active, hungry and capable. In 7 years we received probably 2 unqualified leads from Microsoft. The lead distribution is all about relationships and the perceived ability to deliver. If you have a good relationship with Microsoft, you keep the channels of communication open and frequent, and you pronounce everything you have done and can do, then they will turn to you first with a lead as they "know" you can deliver. Microsoft always made it very clear to us as a reseller that they were NOT a lead generator, the NSC was responsible for its own leads.

In the last few years some of the larger AX resellers have moved into the NAV market, thereby offering a Dynamics solution. I was part of one such amalgamation recently. This leads the reseller to the position whereby they can offer the "best" solution. This can be very difficult depending upon the salesperson and the requirements and the process. However whilst AX offers more functionality out of the box it comes at a cost from a project perspective.

I do not feel there is any leaning specifically towards AX. I have no sales figures but I know both solutions are being sold. The difference I would say in the past 12 months is they are selling better than ever before.

Microsoft has an AX consulting arm in the UK. They have presales in all Dynamics areas, and I presume consultants in NAV. Will they go direct? They already do depending upon the size of the client. This maybe the model for the future, but I doubt it looking at the market space of NAV.

I cannot say if the bigger resellers are being pushed towards AX, but many of them are new to selling both, so dropping NAV will come down to a decision of economics not MS.

The MBS channel certainly want the most revenue possible. Do they do this to the detriment of the NAV channel? I cannot see this overall. Not everyone sells both products, and they need the smaller NAV resellers, they provide an excellent service in a market place the larger resellers sometimes fear to tread. If they try to turn all NAV leads into AX they will lose more revenue than gain in my opinion, remember MS only get the license and support fees, not the services, and it is the services where teh difference is in reality, as the license costs are not too far removed anymore. Obviously this differs per user sale, and AX traditionally goes into the larger sites, but on a 30 user site the major difference in the two products will be the time on the project, not the software. In my opinion MS will not deliberately push one over the other, it gains them no major benefit. Is MS really going to one holistic product and dropping three separate and burgeoning revenue streams? We will have to wait and see!

To finish after 7 years in the UK channel from a lead perspective nothing has changed, I agree with David, and with 5.1 we will have more difficult selling reasons with the funtionality differences between the products.

alpap64

Thank you David/Adam,

Some interesting comments which by and large I agree with.

My concerns also center around the fact that AX is being pushed to the detriment of NAV and despite what I have seen in several cases, MS deny this is the case. I know of at least 2 prospects who are confused by this.

I certainly feel that this denial represents a new phase in what the current MBS UK MD is doing; especially since his former employer seems to be one of the biggest beneficiary.

The NAV market is strong and healthy and after nearly 10 years working as a client and for NSC's the situation with leads remains pretty much the same as David pointed out.

I too believe that NAV 5.1 will "kick butt" but find MS getting more and more cynical and as those who rely on our livelihood on the channel we should have a bigger voice than we currently do.

As a final note I understand from MS that in MS FY'07 over 900 leads where generated in the UK.

Regards,

Alex

Miklos_Hollender

AX seems pretty much dead here in the Midlands - I'm not exactly in sales but I've never ever heard of losing a deal against it during the last 12 months .

I think - but take it with a grain of salt as I don't really know much about marketing - AX still can't compete with NAV in that aspect of sales that 3-4 hours of work enables you to show some really awesome bespoke at the second sales demo.

alpap64

As Miklos said maybe one reason why MS is employing a lot more people in the direcet AX channel as consultants and Project Managers is the fact that it takes more effort to do the same things in AX as it does in NAV.

If a direct model gets well established in the UK other revenue streams come into focus like CRM, NAV, GP - I hesitate to say but this is happening in the US and at least one fairly sizable US partner went up against MS in a bid before MS backed away.

Back to point though is that MS are clearly pushing prospects towards AX rather than NAV.

The emergence of NAV 5.1 will be interesting as there then remain fewer reasons to implemnt AX over NAV.

I wonder if UK AX partners believe they are seeding the market for MS to launch a full scale consultancy operation much as they have in the US.

All in all it seems MS in the UK at least, looks like it is starting to take sides both in terms of product and partners.

A

DenSter

You also have to understand that the NAV group and the AX group are completely separate. The AX people will always push for AX over NAV, and vice versa. There really is no clear cut vision as to what product is better for what type of customer, there is always going to be competition in the grey areas.

alpap64

Hi Denster,

I agree the different groups will vie seperately and that is what is what has always happened.

What is new and denied by MS UK is that Prospect are being pushed towards AX with the top 3 resellers even to the detriment of NAV.

That is new and it has already caused confusion in prospects and may signal a shift in focus from MBS UK. Certainly the MD of MBS UK talks of almost nothing but AX. For instence we have seen sales presentations from MS on new technologies or product versions like CRM 4/Sharepoint/SQL etc and only AX is being mentioned in these slides.

That is a deliberate marketing policy to which MS does not own up to.

It maybe that NAV resllers have always been a bit partisan and stuck to what we know; but this sort of development will come to effect us all eventually.

I just wish MS would be clear and not build one channel at the detriment of another.

A

DenSter

It was similar at Convergence here in the States, where it seemed GP was the big favorite. Even the demo (which was built with the new NAV engine) was called to be the new GP version. I am going to decline voicing my opinion at this time .

alpap64

We'll have to wait for 10 days to see what delights come out of convergence.

themave

DenSter wrote:

It was similar at Convergence here in the States, where it seemed GP was the big favorite. Even the demo (which was built with the new NAV engine) was called to be the new GP version. I am going to decline voicing my opinion at this time .

just a small chime in from an end user, in the states it has been a big leaning toward great plains ever since Microsoft bought Navision. My first welcome letter from Microsoft was from the great plains group. the login to customer source was not even called customer source, it was a greatplains support site. that has only recently changed.

DenSter

So the cat's out of the bag now.... the next NAV release (5.1? 6.0? 2008?) has been postponed again, and there's a rumor going around that this was done in part to make room for the new AX release. Given the momentum they are losing with NAV at the moment, it's not strange that MS is focusing on something other than NAV.

Hopefully come next year the momentum will swing back around, but it seems that NAV is not very hot right now.

alpap64

The strange thing is Denster, is that NAV shows growth of 33% globally, surpassed GP for the first time in MS FY06 and provides by far the largest chunk of income for MBS.

As far as technology is concerned, the new Entrepreneur Edition is based on NAV and I am reliably informed that the Transaction Engine being used for a future unified product is NAV also. Couple that with the fact that most of the development team are working on NAV why do we get the impression that NAV is losing ground ?!

Maybe there's some other plan in place that MS isn't talking about. Maybe Convergence will provide some answers.

Alex_Chow

Yet with the growth of NAV, when you log into Microsoft Dynamics website and chat with the "expert", they always suggest you to buy GP...

Something is not connecting here...

NavStudent

Alex Chow wrote:

Yet with the growth of NAV, when you log into Microsoft Dynamics website and chat with the "expert", they always suggest you to buy GP...

Something is not connecting here...

That's because most of them are GP consultants and have no clients to work for and nothing to do, so what else can they do but suggest GP?

Alex_Chow

NavStudent wrote:

Alex Chow wrote:

Yet with the growth of NAV, when you log into Microsoft Dynamics website and chat with the "expert", they always suggest you to buy GP...

Something is not connecting here...

That's because most of them are GP consultants and have no clients to work for and nothing to do, so what else can they do but suggest GP?

Maybe suggest Navision? [-o<