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possible new customer ... Caveats or Kudos?

ChollieBVLChollieBVL Member Posts: 3
edited 2007-10-04 in NAV/Navision Classic Client
Hello All,

I am brand new to Navision and would love for any of you to give me your feedback on Navision. I am not sure if this is the right place so please feel free to let me know the best place to post this if it is in the wrong place now.

My company has been evaluating the Navision package for just a couple weeks now and at first blush it looks beautiful!!

Lots of stuff we need as an SMB and it seems very flexible.

Could I ask anyone/everyone to give me a some feedback on how well it has performed in their environment and how much customization you can/have do/done to it?

We have several access databases and SQL server tables that have managed our business before and also wonder how well and easy those may integegrate into Navision?

Anything you can offer me would be great... Even if it is "turn and run away".

Thanks a ton,

Chollie
John Sedgwick, a Union cmdr during the Civil War, uttered last words about the enemy forces during a battle: "They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist--"

Comments

  • ChollieBVLChollieBVL Member Posts: 3
    All,

    I started this post for my supervisors to determine how well Navision worked for many of you out here in your business...I truly would love to hear from anyone; did you have trouble implementing? Is it difficult for users to catch on? Is customizing a fairly simple process? Is it good enough out of the box?

    Thanks in acvance.

    Charles
    John Sedgwick, a Union cmdr during the Civil War, uttered last words about the enemy forces during a battle: "They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist--"
  • SavatageSavatage Member Posts: 7,142
    We love our system.
    Works great.
    Steps above our old system Macola.
    Easily implemented our users caught on in just a few weeks.
    Sites like this that can help you with almost anything.

    and we're still on the ver 3 - if you are getting ver 5 can only imagine how much better that is!

    It's hard to answer questions like "is it good enuf out of the box"
    -for some company's probably yes, but every company is different.

    Have whomever is going to install Nav for you import some of your own data. Then go thru all the daily processes that might come up. If all that works as well as you expect then I can assume it's ready to go.

    But everyone wants a form added or card change or report modification. And that probably hold true for whatever packages you finally decide on.

    We liked that it was a little more than we needed. Because we wanted to be able to grow and not be held back by the software. Now that we have grown we see that Nav has grown with us. We have made many tweaks along the way and now it fits us like a glove. Many little form/report/fields can be easily made by yourself without outside help.

    http://download.microsoft.com/documents ... butors.doc

    http://www.microsoft.com/dynamics/nav/default.mspx

    You can find a company that is similar to your and read their case study and perhaps contact them to get a similar industry opinion
    http://www.microsoft.com/dynamics/casestudies/nav.aspx
    Harry Ruiz
    http://www.BiloBeauty.com
    http://www.autismspeaks.org
  • Alex_ChowAlex_Chow Member Posts: 5,063
    Well, from a Partner's prospective, Navision is absolutely fantastic. There is no other small/mid size ERP system on the market today that and quickly translate business logic into the system.

    Some other systems looks great out of the box, but your real pain comes when you start asking for things unique to your industry and business. This is where Navision truly shines.
    Confessions of a Dynamics NAV Consultant = my blog
    AP Commerce, Inc. = where I work

    Getting Started with Dynamics NAV 2013 Application Development = my book
    Implementing Microsoft Dynamics NAV - 3rd Edition = my 2nd book
  • themavethemave Member Posts: 1,058
    ChollieBVL wrote:
    ...
    Lots of stuff we need as an SMB and it seems very flexible.

    Could I ask anyone/everyone to give me a some feedback on how well it has performed in their environment and how much customization you can/have do/done to it?

    We have several access databases and SQL server tables that have managed our business before and also wonder how well and easy those may integegrate into Navision?

    As an end user

    It is very flexible. and has performed well for us, been on the system since 1999 Navision 2.0, didn't upgrade to 4.0 till 2006

    Because it is so flexible you might be tempted to customize it right away, I would suggest to hold off on customizations as long as possible. Out of the box, it can work for a lot of companies, what happens though is everyone wants it to look like the system they are replacing, so they immediately start costomizing it. many times Navision will already do what they want it just looks a little different. or it requires a very well thought out setup, and unfortunately I don't think many solutions center really know how to setup Navision in the first place. I see a lot of questions on the forum asking how to do something and the first response is how to program a change to accomplish it. when a lot of time navision already does it, it just requires a little careful thought on some setup issues.

    but instead the programmer changes lots of code. and next thing you know you have such a customized system you can't even load a service pack without a huge expense. because each hotfix, or service pack, can't just be loaded, the programmer has to basically program the fix in from scratch. Yes they know what to program by looking at the hotfix, or service pack. they can't just load it.

    Start with a base navision use it for a while with minimum changes. then when you are ready to customize. have your solution center do it with the instructions to make it easy to upgrade later. so they may use new codeunits or reports when ever possible. leaving the original untouched as much as possible.

    for reports, buy extra at the start, and modify those, you will be way ahead of the upgrade game just copying an existing report to a new one and modifing that one.

    as for your access and sql databases, yes they can be integrated, but the real question is why integrate, if you need the history, you can likely import it into Navision for your beginning data. If you are thinking you are going to have some stuff in access, some stuff in sql and some in navision, just bring it all into navision and the navision tables, even if you have to create new tables in Navision (which can be either native or Sql)

    If you are just now getting Navision, look to SQL, even though the navtive database is much more effeceint and easier to manage, you will want SQL, since that is clearly the future of Navision.
  • themavethemave Member Posts: 1,058
    another thought on the topic, we are part of the auto repair and rebuild industry, we rebuild Transmissions, drivelines, and other heavy truck equipment, there are a lot of specialized solutions for our industry, they run on unix systems or ibm mini computers like the AS400 ect. Very expensive, geared to our industry, we are also part of a much larger company that lets there indivual subsidaries run their own operations, all of our sister companies are on one of the specialized verticle solutions, and I can with out a doubt say our Navision system running on a PC network out performs them all. When I go to a regional meeting, and compare notes it is not even close. If I need a special feature for handling core returns that is just a little different, I can have our solution center program it for me, that is if I can't just do it myself, which most of the time I can. Our sister companies will say they have submitted their request to the vendor and the vendor is evaluating if the change is appropriate to incorporate into the program, because the vendor has to make sure the change will not negatively affect a different user. The vendor looks to see if the change will be a selling feature to other customers, if it is, then they might program it in. If it isn't going to help them sell it to other companies, then it likely won't get done.
  • jlandeenjlandeen Member Posts: 524
    There have been quite a few posts on here and I thought I would add a few additional notes.

    Being a Navision Consultant that comes from a true development background I have a bit of a love/hate relationship with Navision. Generally I will admit that it's more love then hate and I'm quite happy that I work with the product...I just always wish it could be better.

    On the hate side of things (and these are probably more technical points)
    - it's not truly object oriented
    - it doesn't have a full/rich development environment like .Net (or AX...from what i've heard about AX)
    - Codeunits and some big processes aren't as modular & optimized as they could be
    - restricted from adding/embedding visual objects (like COM controls)
    - not a 3 tier architecture (although this is slated to be fixed in version 5.1)

    On the love side of things
    - there is a LOT of base functionality in Navision
    - the environment allows you to develop & deploy objects and changes fairly easily
    - it truly supports a Rapid Development Methodolgy very well
    - Building out new areas & modules is very easy
    - It has the support of Micrsoft and definately gets better each version
    - from a business perspective it really gives you the tools to model most businesses (or adapt to others)
    - does not force you to change your business to implement it
    - SQL back end makes it very easy to support and integrate with other systems
    - SIFT & Flowfields are brilliant pieces of technology

    Quick Reality Check
    It is very important to note that Navision itself cannot solve all your problems, and you should not immediately rush to customize it to your hearts desire (even though you can). As an end customer you should spend some time (and dedicate internal resources) considering the impact of any big modifications to Navision - and if possible try and rely on input from experienced Navision resrouces. Normally I recommend trying to keep things as simple and as close to base functionality as possible, as it's normally the large and most complex customizations that carry the most risk of failure. Not to mention the fact that those large & complex changes can lead to the most headaches & time (i.e. cost) to upgrades in the future. Navision can certainly improve your business and with some good resources and effort (on your side and with your Navision Partner) you're sure to have a good implementation.
    Jeff Landeen - Sr. Consultant
    Epimatic Corp.
    http://www.epimatic.com
  • idiotidiot Member Posts: 651
    From an out-of-the-box system point of view its fantastic.
    From a security (permission) & control point of view it's a nightmare.
    From a value-for money point of view it's worth more than it costs.
    From an experienced developer's (someone who is able to develop an ERP from scratch) point of view it's rubbish.
    From technology point of view it's out-dated.
    From system logic vs real-live logic point of view it's debatable.
    ...
    ...
    NAV - Norton Anti Virus

    ERP Consultant (not just Navision) & Navision challenger
  • Alex_ChowAlex_Chow Member Posts: 5,063
    idiot wrote:
    From an out-of-the-box system point of view its fantastic.
    From a security (permission) & control point of view it's a nightmare.
    From a value-for money point of view it's worth more than it costs.
    From an experienced developer's (someone who is able to develop an ERP from scratch) point of view it's rubbish.
    From technology point of view it's out-dated.
    From system logic vs real-live logic point of view it's debatable.
    ...
    ...

    Hmm... I do not agree with this list except for the permission point.

    But then again, debating on whether one likes it or not is like debating which religion is better... :lol:
    Confessions of a Dynamics NAV Consultant = my blog
    AP Commerce, Inc. = where I work

    Getting Started with Dynamics NAV 2013 Application Development = my book
    Implementing Microsoft Dynamics NAV - 3rd Edition = my 2nd book
  • kinekine Member Posts: 12,562
    idiot wrote:
    From an out-of-the-box system point of view its fantastic.
    From a security (permission) & control point of view it's a nightmare.
    From a value-for money point of view it's worth more than it costs.
    From an experienced developer's (someone who is able to develop an ERP from scratch) point of view it's rubbish.
    From technology point of view it's out-dated.
    From system logic vs real-live logic point of view it's debatable.
    ...
    ...

    I must disagree.

    Just your point of view, not from an "experienced developer's" point of view. I must say that I am not "un-experienced" and NAV is excelent.

    Security is not problem, when correctly planned and used (and this is hard). Of course, NAV is "optimistic" system, which is trying to give users as many data as you want. If your company policy is pesimistic (prevent users to see the information), you can have problem with settings the strict policy.

    Technology - outdated but very good. Not everything "new" is "good and high-quality". You know - old things are "tested by ages" and have many good things developed through the time.

    System logic - it is based on "real-live" logic. But it do not suite to everybody. Of course, but it is as general as possible to suite most of the users. And for the rest there are tools to change what you want.

    For ChollieBVL: Best thing on NAV is that the whole application is "Open-source" - it means that with appropriate license you can change everything you want (it is both - pro and cons). In other systems you can just add new levels etc. but in NAV you can change the core if you want and you know what to do...
    Kamil Sacek
    MVP - Dynamics NAV
    My BLOG
    NAVERTICA a.s.
  • idiotidiot Member Posts: 651
    kine wrote:
    I must disagree.

    Just your point of view, not from an "experienced developer's" point of view. I must say that I am not "un-experienced" and NAV is excelent.

    Security is not problem, when correctly planned and used (and this is hard). Of course, NAV is "optimistic" system, which is trying to give users as many data as you want. If your company policy is pesimistic (prevent users to see the information), you can have problem with settings the strict policy.

    Technology - outdated but very good. Not everything "new" is "good and high-quality". You know - old things are "tested by ages" and have many good things developed through the time.

    System logic - it is based on "real-live" logic. But it do not suite to everybody. Of course, but it is as general as possible to suite most of the users. And for the rest there are tools to change what you want.
    Here we go again...

    Maybe you like to list all your experiences... :)
    OK maybe you are indeed experienced but definitely not the makers of Nav. Or maybe they were experienced but the logic was based on "then" not "now". When a seed is rotten no matter how much fertilizer or water is added it will not grow...Ok maybe too strong, Nav is not rotten :D

    Every company is concerned abt security, the tighter the better. Nav permission logic is direct contrast with Windows'.

    How can something that is outdated be very good? Oops my bad. Vista is a very good example. OK how about native thin client instead of reliance on 3rd party?

    "Real-live" logic of a simple company? A company having processes of the 70s? This is where a strong consultant can turn Nav into something that can really help the company

    :D
    NAV - Norton Anti Virus

    ERP Consultant (not just Navision) & Navision challenger
  • idiotidiot Member Posts: 651
    From an out-of-the-box system point of view its fantastic.
    From a security (permission) & control point of view it's a nightmare.
    From a value-for money point of view it's worth more than it costs.
    From an experienced developer's (someone who is able to develop an ERP from scratch) point of view it's rubbish.
    From technology point of view it's out-dated.
    From system logic vs real-live logic point of view it's debatable.
    ...
    ...
    NAV - Norton Anti Virus

    ERP Consultant (not just Navision) & Navision challenger
  • DenSterDenSter Member Posts: 8,305
    Is there a reason for repeating this?

    Just because something was invented a long time ago, doesn't mean that it is outdated. It just simply works, it is robust, the logic is clear, and it is relatively easy to modify to the customer's requirements. I'll challenge any ERP system that can claim that.

    So what if technological innovations are lagging behind a little bit. I don't think any company in the world (well any ERP needing department of any company in the world) has a *business* requirement of 'we need to be on the latest technology'. In fact, over the decades it has been proven that the best business apps are the ones that endure the test of time.

    I have not yet seen a business requirement that cannot be implemented in NAV.
    Daniel Rimmelzwaan
    RIS Plus, LLC
  • SavatageSavatage Member Posts: 7,142
    edited 2007-10-03
    I think thyere was a discussion a while back (forgot about exactly what..perhaps Oracle??)

    Anyway I think the jist of the discussion was the fact that there are problems rushing to new technologies too fast and even though it might be old it's proven, tested & reliable.

    Now who wouldn't want that?
    Harry Ruiz
    http://www.BiloBeauty.com
    http://www.autismspeaks.org
  • Alex_ChowAlex_Chow Member Posts: 5,063
    Savatage wrote:
    I think thyere was a discussion a while back (forgot about exactly what..perhaps Oracle??)

    Anyway I think the jist of the discussion was the fact that there are problems rushing to new technologies too fast and even thought it might be old it's proven, tested & reliable.

    Now who wouldn't want that?

    Geeks who don't understand business. :mrgreen:
    Confessions of a Dynamics NAV Consultant = my blog
    AP Commerce, Inc. = where I work

    Getting Started with Dynamics NAV 2013 Application Development = my book
    Implementing Microsoft Dynamics NAV - 3rd Edition = my 2nd book
  • idiotidiot Member Posts: 651
    DenSter wrote:
    I have not yet seen a business requirement that cannot be implemented in NAV.
    This was the exact same phrase used by a Nav consultant.
    Let's just say Nav is not a development tool & such statements are not leak-proof & there are preset rules which cannot be changed at all. The term "business requirement" should not be used in such context.
    I am just going to ask how many tables, forms, clicks, money are required.
    Everybody will be boasting about this regarding their software if the software is customizable.

    Sorry but this is going to be my last post on this topic.

    I find generally (i apologise if i offend anybody with this...) Nav consultants are extremely protective of Nav. I can understand the reason why...
    However I think everyone of us here is mature enough to be able to accept that every software has flaws & that there is no perfect software...
    The points that I have read so far, mostly are what a Nav Salesperson would use (in fact several points are almost word for word) during presentation & maybe how the implementor justifies to the management, which is in defensive mode...
    My intention was just to be able to give a fairer view on both pros & cons of Nav...

    Let's not paint too cheerful a picture... :)
    NAV - Norton Anti Virus

    ERP Consultant (not just Navision) & Navision challenger
  • Alex_ChowAlex_Chow Member Posts: 5,063
    Idiot (not calling him an idiot, but just referring to his name)... I'm sorry your implementation didn't go well...

    If you choked on a piece of broccali when you were young, the chances are you're going to hate broccali the rest of your life.. :(
    Confessions of a Dynamics NAV Consultant = my blog
    AP Commerce, Inc. = where I work

    Getting Started with Dynamics NAV 2013 Application Development = my book
    Implementing Microsoft Dynamics NAV - 3rd Edition = my 2nd book
  • cnicolacnicola Member Posts: 181
    idiot wrote:
    However I think everyone of us here is mature enough to be able to accept that every software has flaws & that there is no perfect software...
    The points that I have read so far, mostly are what a Nav Salesperson would use (in fact several points are almost word for word) during presentation & maybe how the implementor justifies to the management, which is in defensive mode...
    My intention was just to be able to give a fairer view on both pros & cons of Nav...

    Let's not paint too cheerful a picture... :)

    A phrase I heard a lot since I came to US is: "Democracy is a horrible political system. But it is better than any other option out there right now". And God knows if you follow a little US politics you cannot help to wish for a better option at this point ](*,)
    Whether Navision is the best system (technically or otherwise) is a moot point (though I still think it is :D ). The question is what are the other options for a midsize company? (if you are small you got QuickBooks and the likes and if you are a large company maybe you can afford SAP or Oracle though in that case let's not talk about flexibility).
    Some very specialized industries are lucky to have their own industry specific software but most companies are somewhere in the middle and everyone does things a little (or a lot) different than the competitors (and take pride in that since that is why supposedely people choose you instead of your competitors).
    God knows that a vertical is the Holy Grail for a lot of Solution Centers. But that is almost never achived due to the above fact.

    So then the option is :

    1. Get a system that has some of the stuff and develop the rest.
    2. Or get someone to write one for you from scratch in the latest technology. Though I cannot see how the cost of catching up to the Navision functionality and more is less than an implementation and also that ties the company into a certain person(s) making it a very bad business decision.

    And BTW I dare you to name any business in the world where the consultants and developers say the same thing as the salespeople and mean it.

    Also, I don't know about other people but I am very defensive about Navision because sadly there are a lot of bad Navision Solution Centers out there that give Navision a bad name. (and then you get the broccoli example from Alex Chow :P )
    Apathy is on the rise but nobody seems to care.
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