nav 5 & the move to SQL reporting services - report view

themave

What is the future of the cal/code report writer in Navision. As an end user without a developer license, I can use the processing only report feature in Navision to accomplish a lot of things. If Dynamics Nav moves to the sql report writer is the functionality going to be lost?

I understand most people on this forum are developers, but from and end user point of view, what other features for 4.0 native database users do you see being lost, in 5.1 sql version?

What I am asking is if we want to go to the new client, ect. what will we have to give up to do that.

garak

You realy sure, that M$ will disable the navision reports? I think not. Because only some enduser can work professional with the SQL-Server. The most of them use for reports navision.

SteveO

AFAIK, you can still design the reports as you normally would in Navision. These then get translated to RDL (format for SQL Reporting) behind the scenes.

This does mean that there will be some restrictions with the code that you can place within a report. From what we've all been told in the new client Forms and Reports are for displaying information (and forms for updating) only and not for doing business processing. So some reports may need to be rewritten as codeunits.

Waldo

This is what I got from MS.

All will work the same as before (5.0 is still a C/SIDE client).
If you want, you can export your basic design to RDL, and go ahead with Visual Studio.

The reports that you design via RDL, will ONLY work on Dynamics Client (aka "new" client), so we'll have to wait for this enhancement.

So, basically, it's the same that SteveO was explaining

themave

SteveO wrote:

AFAIK, you can still design the reports as you normally would in Navision. These then get translated to RDL (format for SQL Reporting) behind the scenes.

This does mean that there will be some restrictions with the code that you can place within a report. From what we've all been told in the new client Forms and Reports are for displaying information (and forms for updating) only and not for doing business processing. So some reports may need to be rewritten as codeunits.

this is what I am worried about, I am an end user and do not have access to codeunits, it seems that most useful programing is being moved to codeunits and out of forms and reports. This greatly reduces what an end user can do. and it is a pretty big change for Navision also. as processing only reports are used through out Navision, for example "suggest vendor payments" is a processing only report the populates the payment journal for a check run. If reports become for display only, then this functionality goes away.

it is very useful and I would consider it a deal breaker if as an end user I could no longer use this functionality. Now when we need slight changes I can edit the report and make for example the suggest vendor payments, include the project code, or something like that, if it is moved to a codeunit, I now would have to run to my solution center to get a program change made.

DenSter

themave wrote:

<snip> it seems that most useful programing is being moved to codeunits and out of forms and reports <snip>

I am not going to be popular by saying this, but that is where code should be. It should simply not be possible to code everything you want in a report. Reports should do reporting that's it.

I am sure that there are many people out there that know what they are doing, but there should just not be access to C/AL code in reports. You have no idea what kind of crap we see sometimes because users program reports to manipulate data....

themave

DenSter wrote:

themave wrote:

<snip> it seems that most useful programing is being moved to codeunits and out of forms and reports <snip>

I am not going to be popular by saying this, but that is where code should be. It should simply not be possible to code everything you want in a report. Reports should do reporting that's it.

I am sure that there are many people out there that know what they are doing, but there should just not be access to C/AL code in reports. You have no idea what kind of crap we see sometimes because users program reports to manipulate data....

I'm and not here to argue that, but the program was sold to us with that ability, it is one thing that set Navison apart from the other programs, was the ability to make changes ourselfes.

Now, not to take a shot at programmers, but you wouldn't believe some of the stuff they have sent to us, even I as an end user found many problems, and I even had to tell them what needed to be done to correct it. so poor programing is not limited to end users. and it appears that Dynamics Nav. is moving to open up the programming to anybody that is a gold partner, can't wait for that to unlease a ton of programmers who know nothing about Navision.

DenSter

themave wrote:

Now, not to take a shot at programmers, but you wouldn't believe some of the stuff they have sent to us

Point well taken I've seen my share of those things as well, and I am waiting for the same floodgates to open when even more unqualified 'partners' get their hands on the designers.

Waldo

I agree with Denster. Reports are there for reporting reasons, not for manipulating data. Why should one use a report? To be able to use the request form? :-k

Indeed, there are bad programmers as well, but that doesn't mean all programmers are bad. In our company, we are responsible for the functionality. If there's a bug, we'll fix it for free. That's obvious and normal. But when we notice that the customer is write code ... we're not responsible anymore ... . We just can't allow the customer to make that kind of changes. We are educated for it. We are certified for it. So we are the ones that can be responsible.

I'm and not here to argue that, but the program was sold to us with that ability, it is one thing that set Navison apart from the other programs, was the ability to make changes ourselfes.

imho, it should not have been sold to you like that. It has the ability to be changed ... by a Certified Microsoft Partner.

Sorry .. :oops:

themave

Waldo wrote:

I agree with Denster. Reports are there for reporting reasons, not for manipulating data. Why should one use a report? To be able to use the request form? :-k

Indeed, there are bad programmers as well, but that doesn't mean all programmers are bad. In our company, we are responsible for the functionality. If there's a bug, we'll fix it for free. That's obvious and normal. But when we notice that the customer is write code ... we're not responsible anymore ... . We just can't allow the customer to make that kind of changes. We are educated for it. We are certified for it. So we are the ones that can be responsible.

I'm and not here to argue that, but the program was sold to us with that ability, it is one thing that set Navison apart from the other programs, was the ability to make changes ourselfes.

imho, it should not have been sold to you like that. It has the ability to be changed ... by a Certified Microsoft Partner.

Sorry .. :oops:

this was included in the Navision pitch as well, not the solution center, they even offer the application designer and solution developer granuls to end users for a price, all as part of the pitch that Navision is an end user customizable program.

Now, Reports are by design made to do much more then display data, the core of navision uses non-printing reports to do a significant portion of the work. Like the example of populating the vendor payment table, it is a report "Suggest Vendor Payments" that runs and fills the journal.

the report designer quide from Navision gives directions on it. So, if you have a problem with it, you have a problem with the core of Navision. As many features where built around it.

Waldo

Dear god, it's just an opinion. :roll:

I know about the possibilities, the fact that NAV uses reports, the different granules, etc etc etc. . If this makes it the "core" ... that's another discussion.

I also know what it takes to become a decent developer, who, by experience, can estimate what impact certain customizations can have. (At least, I'm supposed to know ... ).

Therefore, I know it is a hell of a job to create a decent developer out of a customer that is not dedicated to that job, to someone who does some things, here and there, once a week. You see what I'm getting at?
If you get a decent education, get some experience, are dedicated, ... sure you can become a good developer. Everyone can ... customer, partner, women , ... everyone!

Nevertheless, don't expect the partner to take responsibility

It's a matter of viewing points:
you (as a customer) are afraid you won't be able to do modifications anymore.
I (as partner) am looking forward that the customer can't do modifications anymore.

Tip:
just buy the solution builder granule. You get a developer's license. All is possible with it, and there is no reason for this arguement. =D>

themave

Sorry, wasn't trying to insult you, I too know the value of a good programer, and we pay our solution center to do the heavy lifting, because we are in the truck parts business not the programing business.

But I also am not in the business of giving money away to make simple changes, once the program changes to the point where I have to pay to make the entire part number show on a report is the day I get another program.

To me, I have been with Navision a reasonal amont of time, about eight years now, it has always been a program that was usable, with a few changes, which made it very attractive. But I feel it is moving away from that, everything seems to be going to a cookie cutter implementation, where you buy standard Navision and buy an add-on, rather then custom program changes. As and end user you accept what the programer has done because he knows best.

It seems to me, Microsoft was sitting in the audiance a few years ago, when Larry Ellison gave his speach about Oracle should be a standard product and should not be modified, users should change their business practice to fit the program, not the program to fit the business practics. If I had wanted that, I could just switch to Oracle.

DenSter

It's not Microsoft that pushes this onto the market though, it's the customers who demand standard solutions. Heck even YOU are saying things about what should be standard :shock:

Nowadays it's virtually impossible to get a deal that has development included from the outset, everyone wants an out-of-the-box solution. You'd be surprised at how much we argue with customers about what should have been included.

Waldo

DenSter wrote:

You'd be surprised at how much we argue with customers about what should have been included.

And customers saying A, wanting B, but definitally not C.
And other customers saying B, wanting C, but definitally not A.
:-k

gedas

To Waldo, Denster

Very very bad point of view.
You as NSC are unhappy about customers customisation and propose to limit that?
Next natural step is: MBS is unhappy NSC customisations (error, terrible upgrade and new version release) so will deny any customisation except new reports and new functionality on top of existing - no modifications on existing... ()
We don't need such ERP product. Which of you didn't make changes in codeunit 1;12;22? We need possibilities to change base functionality.
Now we have NAV on SQL, so actually every customer(system administrator) can open SQL table and change G/l amounts (or writes SQL query which changes customers setup). Will they show these amounts to NSC and will say: You did errors in programming - please correct everything for free??? If so, then they need not open functional ERP, but closed code software without permisions to db and so. :evil:

Really customer is responsible for data and i don't worry that they are responsible for product code they modified too. We can consult them, training them and allow them make any changes they want, just customer must be responsible for actions they do. And we can correct customers errors but it is chargeable jobs.

I vote for freedom

Waldo

Indeed, it's about responsibility. As long as the customer knows he's responsible when he plays around in NAV, no problem.

Again:

If you get a decent education, get some experience, are dedicated, ... sure you can become a good developer. Everyone can ... customer, partner, women , ... everyone!
Nevertheless, don't expect the partner to take responsibility

Unfortunately, my experience tells me that customer plays around, and we should be responsible ... why? Because NAV (or NSC) should foresee that user CAN play around, but CAN'T make mistakes. :-k

DenSter

gedas wrote:

You as NSC are unhappy about customers customisation and propose to limit that?

No I think you misunderstand me. I am not unhappy about customer development. I am unhappy with bad development, whether that is done by the customer or by NSC staff. You have to agree though that the probability of bad code being written by a customer is higher than with a skilled NAV developer (note that I said 'skilled', so unskilled NSC personnel can screw up just as badly).

The bad thing though is that whenever a customer has a problem, no matter who wrote the bad code, it is always the NSC that was wrong and has to fix the problem.

My personal opinion is that it was a bad choice by Navision to make it possible to develop anything you want with report objects. You can make reports act like codeunits if you want, and anyone with a little bit of VBA knowledge will use that and try to make NAV act like they want.

Trust me I am all for freedom, I just wish that when a customer plans to do some development that they would write it up and have us review it, instead of hacking their way through issues.

nav_nav

They should force the customer to buy the developers toolkit if he wants any dev capabilities. Get the partner to train him on the toolkit and that would already solve many problems. For starters customers might think ... oeps, this might have a big impact, better ask the consultant first.

It is not about IT, it is all about people. Most customers I work with want the freedom to drag and drop a field on a form or on a report. Or to put something bold on a report. Most customers also have common sense and realise that if you develop one line of code per day on average, you are not really skilled to do things which can have a big impact.

It is all about common sense, but for the partner it is sometimes frightening having to rely on that.

themave

nav nav wrote:

They should force the customer to buy the developers toolkit if he wants any dev capabilities. Get the partner to train him on the toolkit and that would already solve many problems. For starters customers might think ... oeps, this might have a big impact, better ask the consultant first.

It is not about IT, it is all about people. Most customers I work with want the freedom to drag and drop a field on a form or on a report. Or to put something bold on a report. Most customers also have common sense and realize that if you develop one line of code per day on average, you are not really skilled to do things which can have a big impact.

It is all about common sense, but for the partner it is sometimes frightening having to rely on that.

Yeah, they should force the customer to buy a $34000 developer license, because he wants to make minor changes to the program, the program they pitched to him as being easy to modify even for an end user. What world do you live in? Really, I understand a lot of programmers think us end users are idiots, but really we run million dollar business and know the value of paying a programmer for a big job, and do it regularly, and we also know when we are getting hosed by a programmer who wants to charge us $1000 to do a report, Our first quotes were for between 750 - 1250 to modify a report, not add code, just make it look good. I am sure a lot of there other customers must have gone for that scam.

nav_nav

Since when is the developer toolkit costing that much ? Please use fact, don't just mention things. It is costing 7000€ and that is besides the point. From my point of view they give it for free.

It just want to point out that without that tool, you should not be making changes (unless it is about the things I mentioned such as adding a field on a form or make something bold in a report).

themave

nav nav wrote:

Since when is the developer toolkit costing that much ?

it has never changes, for an end user you have to purchase the application designer granul for $8000 and then the developer granul for $26000, that was our quote in 1999, and it was also just quoted six months ago at that same rate, Our solution center gave us the microsoft pricing spreadsheet that they use to place orders, so we could price out different options.

nav_nav

I'm NOT talking about the developer license, I'm talking about the developers TOOLKIT :
Developer's Toolkit - Source Analyzer 99003640 7.090,00€

But again, ...
From my point of view they give it for free.

It just want to point out that without that tool, you should not be making changes (unless it is about the things I mentioned such as adding a field on a form or make something bold in a report).

themave

themave wrote:

nav nav wrote:

Since when is the developer toolkit costing that much ?

it has never changes, for an end user you have to purchase the application designer granul for $8000 and then the developer granul for $26000, that was our quote in 1999, and it was also just quoted six months ago at that same rate, Our solution center gave us the microsoft pricing spreadsheet that they use to place orders, so we could price out different options.

Oh yeah I forgot to add sales tax (which were I am at is 8.75%) $2975 and the 16% annual mantenace fee $5440, so the purchase price for us would be $42,415, plus an annual mantenance of $5440

nav_nav

But besides that, this discussion is way of topic.

nav_nav

themave wrote:

themave wrote:

nav nav wrote:

Since when is the developer toolkit costing that much ?

it has never changes, for an end user you have to purchase the application designer granul for $8000 and then the developer granul for $26000, that was our quote in 1999, and it was also just quoted six months ago at that same rate, Our solution center gave us the microsoft pricing spreadsheet that they use to place orders, so we could price out different options.

Oh yeah I forgot to add sales tax (which were I am at is 8.75%) $2975 and the 16% annual mantenace fee $5440, so the purchase price for us would be $42,415, plus an annual mantenance of $5440

I'm NOT talking about the developer license, I'm talking about the developers TOOLKIT :
Developer's Toolkit - Source Analyzer 99003640 7.090,00€

But again, ...
From my point of view they give it for free.

It just want to point out that without that tool, you should not be making changes (unless it is about the things I mentioned such as adding a field on a form or make something bold in a report).

themave

nav nav wrote:

I'm NOT talking about the developer license, I'm talking about the developers TOOLKIT :
Developer's Toolkit - Source Analyzer 99003640 7.090,00€

But again, ...
From my point of view they give it for free.

It just want to point out that without that tool, you should not be making changes (unless it is about the things I mentioned such as adding a field on a form or make something bold in a report).

An end user can not get the developer toolkit without buying the full developer license.

nav_nav

themave wrote:

nav nav wrote:

I'm NOT talking about the developer license, I'm talking about the developers TOOLKIT :
Developer's Toolkit - Source Analyzer 99003640 7.090,00€

But again, ...
From my point of view they give it for free.

It just want to point out that without that tool, you should not be making changes (unless it is about the things I mentioned such as adding a field on a form or make something bold in a report).

An end user can not get the developer toolkit without buying the full developer license.

But again, ...
From my point of view they give it for free !!!

It just want to point out that without that tool, you should not be making changes (unless it is about the things I mentioned such as adding a field on a form or make something bold in a report).

nav_nav

themave wrote:

nav nav wrote:

I'm NOT talking about the developer license, I'm talking about the developers TOOLKIT :
Developer's Toolkit - Source Analyzer 99003640 7.090,00€

But again, ...
From my point of view they give it for free.

It just want to point out that without that tool, you should not be making changes (unless it is about the things I mentioned such as adding a field on a form or make something bold in a report).

An end user can not get the developer toolkit without buying the full developer license.

The prerequisites are granules 1800 (?) & 7200 and NOT 7300.

David_Cox

themave wrote:

Our first quotes were for between 750 - 1250 to modify a report, not add code, just make it look good. I am sure a lot of there other customers must have gone for that scam.

If you wanted a complete makeover for say an Invoice, "Has to look exactly like our current Invoice", "Boxes, Lines Shipping Information, and comments in boxes, loose half the data and add different data", send it back to the Customer, "Oh can we have another change, while you are there loose them other fields and change the font size", send it back to the Customer and they might just accept it after another change.

This could well cost a days work, even for a highly skilled developer, I have seen "Standard" reports going back an forward several times, because the layout has to be just like the printed stationary!
It would have often been cheaper to scrap the stationary and start again!

How long does it take for an NSC to change the length of the "No." field on the Sales Order document? "Five Minutes"?
Customer phones,NSC Records Support Call, NSC Raises a Change Request and sends to Customer, Customer Accepts, NSC Delegates Work, Developer Changes Report, NSC Sends to Customer, Customer Accepts, NSC Closes Call, NSC Raises Invoice!

How do you do business?

Accepting that sometimes NSC use less skilled developers to alter reports, without enough checking by the NSC before it goes to the Customer.

If you was charged a day for minor changes then that is bad, but it is not always a "scam", Customers often want more than they are paying for, and NSC often under estimate the time it will take to give the Customer the reports in the format they want, so it is a double edged sword, that the developer has to avoid.

Quite often as developers we works hard on a projects, which are under quoted, tight timeline, trimmed budget, user training and acceptance testing cut to a minimum and porly scoped to bring the contract in! :evil:

When the Go-Live has a few problems or the project goes over budget it is "poor development!"

gedas

No I think you misunderstand me. I am not unhappy about customer development. I am unhappy with bad development, whether that is done by the customer or by NSC staff. You have to agree though that the probability of bad code being written by a customer is higher than with a skilled NAV developer (note that I said 'skilled', so unskilled NSC personnel can screw up just as badly).

I agree and dissagree :?
People(developpers) are migrating customer>NSC>Maybe MS> back to customer.. So there could be we have better developper in customer as in NSC or MS. Or maybe not
But we have one limitation: customer can't make changes in ledger entry tables, and can't modify objects which has permissions to modify these tables. So customer bad programing is less impacts to base data as NSC bad developper changes in base codeunits.
If customer want to change report or write advanced report with many code in it, why we must deny this? Let he does that - he will not damage very important data...
But now, when customer have SQL, they can do everything with SQL data and we'll never find reasons for it. I think we have another level of responsibility now (instead of how it was in native NAV db) - we are responsible only for code and for data produced by this code (we must be sure data is produced by our code). And nothing more. All other services like data researching and correction is chargeable.
I had case when customer in native NAV deleted db :evil: I think NAV asks 3 times about "do you really want to delete db". And customer push "Yes". Who is responsible for this? I think the same is with customer bad programming too - this is customer responsibility and he must pay if he want our corrections, researching and so...

nav_nav

One of the problems is probably also that employees think they do not cost the company money...