Moving to Western Europe?...

Shenpen

Dear all,

I am now fed up all the suffering we have here in Eastern Europe with ERP implementations and I am now considering moving to some other country in the EU. Do you have any ideas/advices about it?

First, which country to choose? England? It looks like an obvious choice, because of the language, but my biggest hobby is chopper bike riding and I am a little bit afraid of driving on the left side of the road Other good choices seem to be countries where English is considered kind of a second native language: Denmark and The Netherlands. However, I am still not sure I can get a Navision job there without speaking Danish/Dutch: sure, everybody understands English but requirements specifications etc. are still written in the native language, isn't it? I am also considering Spain, because of the wonderful weather, and a friend of mine keeps telling me that the language is really logical and easy to learn if one understands classical Latin - I do - but I'm afraid that it's completely impossible there to get a Navision job without knowing Spanish language beforehand. Germany? I think no chance of getting a job there without speaking the language very well - I've hacked some big-time add-ons and even variables in the code were in German (special warm thanks for "ServiceVerkaufrechnungskopf" ).

Another consideration: in which country are Navision developers/consultans in highest demand because the market is growing fast etc. ?

Another consideration: I am more and more convinced that the way to go is to make a great add-on product and then find customers who like at least 90% of the product, and keep customizations small-scale, and not to hack-up half of Navision for every customer in a few weeks. Therefore, which country has the biggest add-on culture, in which country is it most likely that a given solution center will have at least 2-3 really comprehensive add-ons?

jesam

Other good choices seem to be countries where English is considered kind of a second native language: Denmark and The Netherlands.

What about Belgium ? In Flanders English is also considered a second native language, plus, in Brussels companies are used to having expats working there...

kriki

jesam wrote:

What about Belgium ? In Flanders English is also considered a second native language, plus, in Brussels companies are used to having expats working there...

And Brussels is the capital of the EC. So a lot of strangers there and they all use English. On the other hand, if you got to the southern part of Belgium, you need to know French.
Other problem:chopper bike: you better get one with a roof. It rains a lot!

In Italy it rains seldomly (at least for belgians like me!). Italians however, will tell that it rains a lot (NOT TRUE!). Finding work in the Navision world is easy in the northern part of Italy. But knowing Italian is necessary.

Shenpen

Thank you all!

I will consider Belgium as well. Do many companies move their HQ there to be close to the EU offices for lobbying?

As for rain... we'll see. There is no such thing as good motorbiking weather - when it's warm, then the protective clothing becomes unbearably hot whenever you stop. The perfect motorbiking weather would be cool, between 10 and 20 Celsius, but never cold, and without humidity, and I think it just does not exist anywhere

BlackTiger, would you please elaborate why did you have negative experiences? Maybe you just need to switch employers - or a long holiday with 20 gallons of sangria and Hawaii dancing girls

kriki

BlackTiger wrote:

And ofcos - AWFUL WEATHER!!! And HUGE F******G TAXES!

The same goes for Belgium, with even higher taxes. The only 2 or 3 countries with higher taxes are all Scandinavian.
E.g. Persons who have an a little higher than average income (like senior Navision consultants). For each 100 EUR gross, about 55 EUR netto remain. If you buy something, 21% VAT. But on the other hand, the Belgian state gives a lot: the best social security-system in the world. A very good working public transport (and for the Belgians who don't believe this, come and try the Italian public transport).

Shenpen

I think it is not really meaningful to compare taxes without comparing average salaries and consumer prices. I think it's better f.e. to compare how much litres of gas you could buy from your monthly salary after taxes. For me it is between 700-1500 litres (won't give exact figure of course, I am not allowed to disclose). I think everybody in this profession between Vienna and Los Angeles can buy at least 5000 litres so please don't complain

BlackTiger: actually a few years ago I've worked with some British guys here and they were kinda easy to like and get along with. One day they sent two programmers from UK to help us and they appeared in that lousy flat of ours we boldly called "office" in perfect 3-parts "City" suits. So people stared at them as if they've been wearing Halloween costumes, and next day they came in wearing beach sandals barefoot, sweater pants and sleeveless "wifebeater" shirts - we've been laughing our butts off So they generally seemed good blokes.

On the other hand, I think understand what your problem is - I think you are from a similar background than me, and whenever I spend a long holiday anywhere in the West I sometimes feel that I cannot behave "natural" and "straightforward" enough. But actually when I think deeper about it, I find that what I might consider "natural" is actually rough and in-yer-face behaviour. I am quite used to it, but I less and less believe that it's cool, I think it's actually a good idea if people behaved with manners and respect. You say curved? I think that's just diplomatic. I think we ourselves behaved similarly a few generations before, just later the Commies messed up our ethics and manners and courtesy. You know it was considered kind of a virtue to be a total jerk, at least here... And of course we can always visit a death metal or punk (or industrial, like KMFDM - best ) concert in to have some refreshing taste of "natural" behaviour to keep our inner balance tilted back

kriki

Shenpen wrote:

I think it is not really meaningful to compare taxes without comparing average salaries and consumer prices. I think it's better f.e. to compare how much litres of gas you could buy from your monthly salary after taxes. For me it is between 700-1500 litres (won't give exact figure of course, I am not allowed to disclose). I think everybody in this profession between Vienna and Los Angeles can buy at least 5000 litres so please don't complain

If you come to Belgium or Italy, you might be disappointed. With a litre costing more than 1 EUR, you won't buy 5000 litres, but a lot less!
In the US, maybe yes, because what I heard is that a litre costs about 1/3 of a EUR.

davmac1

These days closer to half a Euro in USA.
Great country - moved here from South Africa many years ago.

Shenpen

Actually I like a lot of things about the USA - "Peace through superior firepower" bumper stickers are just so cute - save that it's damn too far away. I think if you move to the USA, you move for good - you won't come back for a weekend every month or two to visit your parents and friends. So it looks like a quite bold move, a really big change in life, almost like pressing the reset button on your life to restart...

kriki

Shenpen wrote:

save that it's damn too far away. I think if you move to the USA, you move for good - you won't come back for a weekend every month or two to visit your parents and friends. So it looks like a quite bold move, a really big change in life, almost like pressing the reset button on your life to restart...

This is also the case when you remain closer to home like me from Belgium to Italy. Only 1000 km away. 1h 10min flight.
At the beginning it was my idea to make trip every 2 or 3 months to stay in Belgium for a weekend. But when you are married and then get a baby (now 14 months) it is a lot more difficult and now I almost never go to Belgium anymore.
So what I wanted to say is: even if it is close to home, after a while you don't do it anymore. Because it costs a lot of money and the trip is not exactly what a lot of Italians do: in the weekend they escape the city and go to the mountains, the see or someplace else, just to escape the city. But they remain closer so it takes only 2 or 3 hours trip. With the airplane, it takes a lot longer, even if the flight is only 1h 20 min.

Savatage

Wow :?

Just to let you know not everyone voted for Bush.
In fact he lost the popular vote in the first election.

some of your statements might be true but to group us as a "Nation of Losers" is unfair. & I'd also like us to take care of our own problems at home before screwing around somewhere else.

I love the country but not always the government.
Every 4 years we can try & change it.

I think you'd fine the majority of people think this way.

Also note: Don't lose the idea that different religions have played a part in these civil wars and it's not only on the shoulders of democracy.

ara3n

I feel like every 4 years another puppet comes in to the office, both democrats and republicans are the same. They change rules to favor the corporations that give them money for their compaign funds. Some try to make a change for the better, but can't because it's not politically popular. The system stays the same, billions of tax money is wasted, until another 4 years is past and another puppet comes in.
The hope is that the system can fix itself, but it will happen very slowly. So just keep waiting.

Savatage

So not to Hijack the topic...

All In All everyplace has it's positives & negatives.

So just go where there are lots of pretty girls and good weather \:D/

DenSter

Savatage wrote:

So just go where there are lots of pretty girls and good weather \:D/

Here here Best advice I ever heard =D>

Shenpen

So just go where there are lots of pretty girls and good weather

It sounds good, but I wouldn't take it seriously - while girls tend to use more makeup and spend more time in gyms and therefore be prettier as one goes from west to east (Germany is acceptable, Czech is good, and Ukraine and Russia just *amazing*) , so is their expectations for male partners. I like enjoy good wine, good food, and only a *moderate* amount of sports, and I don't really want to starve myself into some kind of David Hasslehof just in order to stop being single. I rather accept 10 kg extra on girls if they accept 20 kg extra on me. Therefore if the girls are not so top models in a given country, it just means that at least me also don't have to be a top zero-fat macho, and that's cool with me. (OK, strength is important for every man to feel like a real man. That's for sure. I usually go two or three times a week to a gym to lift as heavy weights as I can. But that's a lot different think than eating grass 'n' s**t to remove fat.)

As for weather? Good weather just does not exist. If the spring/autumn is nice, it means summer is unbearably hot. If summer is OK, spring/autumn is cold. I would not put weather as an important decision point, because it is never good. Best course would be to spend summer in Norway and winter in Spain, but who can do that?

kriki

Shenpen wrote:

Best course would be to spend summer in Norway and winter in Spain, but who can do that?

I heard that the summer in Norway can be around 0C degrees. Even in the south!
What I heard from others : the Italian Island Capri. It lies at the cost where Naples is. The temperature in summer and winter is around 24C degrees.
But there is not so much work for a Navision-specialist
Also the Greek Isles are interesting. Or the Canarian islands. Or Carribean islands.
...
I think it will be difficult to find a place that has all the good things:nice weather, nice girls, nice people, nice Navision-evironment.

Marije_Brummel

Shenpen wrote:

Best course would be to spend summer in Norway and winter in Spain, but who can do that?

If I would move out of NL, norway would be on top of my list, and Oslo has the most sun-hours of all cities in europe. The summervacations I've spent in Norway were perfect.

DenSter

Shenpen wrote:

<snip>
I wouldn't take it seriously
</snip>

That was the point of the remark

Shenpen

I've heard that recently immigration rules - even within the EU, with us, the new member states - gotten strict in The Netherlands, so one can only go there if the employer can prove it to the authorities that there was no suitable domestic applicant.

Does anyone know anything about it?